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The full build out of Voorhees Town center is several blocks of an urban, walkable neighborhood with apartments, townhomes, offices, and ground floor retail. It is currently on hold due to the sale of the center, but I would assume would pick back up soon.
For Cherry Hill, the full thing is called the Town Center at Garden State Park. Take a look at it on Google. The full thing includes not only shopping and offices, but urban apartments and townhomes. There will even be a connection to the Cherry Hill Train Station.
I'm not talking about the mall. I'm talking about the massive King of Prussia Town Center and the Village at Valley Forge they are building in King of Prussia. The full thing is an urban neighborhood with shopping, office, apartments and townhomes.
Chester is too rundown. There are not really intact commercial corridors.
I'm really not trying to be overly critical here or trying to give you a hard time, but I still disagree.
1. The residential units for Garden State Park are sufficiently separated by greenspace from the retail. It's not a pleasant walk if you were to try to go between the two. This is a botched project. The original plans were much different and would have been more traditionally urban and walkable, but that is not what ended up happening.
2. I have not heard anything about an expansion of Voorhees Town Center, on hold or otherwise. If there actually is an expansion on hold, I'm not holding my own breath for it to pick back up. The mall is dying even more (Macy's will close there), and the town center portion itself has had a lot of turnover (not a good sign). As it stands now, my opinion is still the same...glorified strip mall with apartments on top.
So, if we are actually going to count "town centers" (Voorhees and Cherry Hill) as truly urban and walkable enough areas, and if we are going to count "works in progress" (King of Prussia), then we surely need to count Haddon Township in as part of this as well, because they are in the middle of building that town center as we speak, alongside what is already a commercially intact stretch of Haddon Avenue that is walkable enough. Yes, there is the occasional strip mall or standalone that breaks up the row-style storefronts, but it doesn't detract too much. Trust me. I've been around there enough and have seen people walking to the bars from the houses a few blocks away on the surrounding streets. And you actually CAN walk from the train to Haddon Avenue, unlike Voorhees or Cherry Hill.
I wouldn't even classify Moorestown and Medford as "urban." Their main streets are definitely more like "small town" main streets. Both only last a few blocks as well. Moorestown also, like Haddon Township, is occasionally broken up, and for pretty much the whole way through, the commercial establishments are only on one side of the street. Medford absolutely feels way more small town than urban, given the architecture. Most of the establishments there aren't urban row-style storefronts but rather stand-alone converted houses. And then get out of the downtown, and the rest of the town is rather spacious and woodsy.
Chester is too rundown? Then why include Camden? Okay okay, maybe this goes back to you wanting to include places that are works in progress, and certainly there is a lot of building going on in Camden. But if we play that game, then still, why would you include Bridgeton, Vineland, Salem, Pleasantville, and Egg Harbor City which are all pretty deadbeat with high vacancy rates and no new investment on the horizon? Milford, DE isn't so hot either. Same goes for Coatesville.
Yes, it's kind of like that. Allentown isn't NYC even though some Northern New Jersians have moved in.
It's weird but true. Lehigh and Northampton Counties have had a good amount of growth sustained from people moving in from North Jersey, but in my experience based on who I know, these people aren't commuting to NYC but rather to some of the corporate hotspots in New Jersey closer in, like Parsippany, Bridgewater, Morristown, Edison, Piscataway, and Hackettstown. All are still pretty hellish commutes even if coming from directly over the border at Easton, but hey, people want to save on their taxes. So because they commute to parts of the NYC MSA proper (even if it's not NYC itself), the Lehigh Valley has become more associated with the overall NYC CSA. If I'm not mistaken, I think at one time it may have belonged to Philadelphia's CSA (just like Trenton and Mercer County, NJ), but the changing of the commuting trends flipped it.
Grays Ferry and Bridesburg can be pretty walkable-even Packer Park along Packer Ave. Pretty much all of South Philly-Whitman, Marconi Park, etc.
East Oak Lane is walkable near Olney and is a very nice neighborhood. Also, I would not call Port Richmond "up and coming"-it has been pretty stable for a while although I suppose an influx of young people is what draws attention. I was just there Friday night at Tacconelli's Pizzeria and it was the best I've had in Philly-ever.
Frankford should definitely be included-despite it's current state it is still among the most urban and walkable neighborhoods. Juniata Park (and maybe parts of Feltonville?) in North Philly are walkable and actually have relatively nice stable areas. Also Oxford Circle in the Northeast (and is "Lawndale" the same thing as Lawncrest?)
Also, although it is a small neighborhood, Wissahickon in NW Philly is walkable and notable because it also has the benefit of being pretty much in the Wissahickon Park-similar to parts of Germantown, WMA, and East Falls but even moreso.
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Originally Posted by Leps12
I'm really not trying to be overly critical here or trying to give you a hard time, but I still disagree.
1. The residential units for Garden State Park are sufficiently separated by greenspace from the retail. It's not a pleasant walk if you were to try to go between the two. This is a botched project. The original plans were much different and would have been more traditionally urban and walkable, but that is not what ended up happening.
2. I have not heard anything about an expansion of Voorhees Town Center, on hold or otherwise. If there actually is an expansion on hold, I'm not holding my own breath for it to pick back up. The mall is dying even more (Macy's will close there), and the town center portion itself has had a lot of turnover (not a good sign). As it stands now, my opinion is still the same...glorified strip mall with apartments on top.
So, if we are actually going to count "town centers" (Voorhees and Cherry Hill) as truly urban and walkable enough areas, and if we are going to count "works in progress" (King of Prussia), then we surely need to count Haddon Township in as part of this as well, because they are in the middle of building that town center as we speak, alongside what is already a commercially intact stretch of Haddon Avenue that is walkable enough. Yes, there is the occasional strip mall or standalone that breaks up the row-style storefronts, but it doesn't detract too much. Trust me. I've been around there enough and have seen people walking to the bars from the houses a few blocks away on the surrounding streets. And you actually CAN walk from the train to Haddon Avenue, unlike Voorhees or Cherry Hill.
I wouldn't even classify Moorestown and Medford as "urban." Their main streets are definitely more like "small town" main streets. Both only last a few blocks as well. Moorestown also, like Haddon Township, is occasionally broken up, and for pretty much the whole way through, the commercial establishments are only on one side of the street. Medford absolutely feels way more small town than urban, given the architecture. Most of the establishments there aren't urban row-style storefronts but rather stand-alone converted houses. And then get out of the downtown, and the rest of the town is rather spacious and woodsy.
Chester is too rundown? Then why include Camden? Okay okay, maybe this goes back to you wanting to include places that are works in progress, and certainly there is a lot of building going on in Camden. But if we play that game, then still, why would you include Bridgeton, Vineland, Salem, Pleasantville, and Egg Harbor City which are all pretty deadbeat with high vacancy rates and no new investment on the horizon? Milford, DE isn't so hot either. Same goes for Coatesville.
Without the stupid town center, Cherry Hill has always been semi walkable.
I'm trying desperately not to hate this project when there are neighborhoods inside the city that could use this kind of investment.
The whole project or the Toll portion? Out of all the faux town centers I've seen, this new one in KoP seems to be doing the most right, infusing residents directly in the middle of the shops with tons of park areas and seating throughout, giving people the option to actual walk around or sit outside instead of park run in the store and run back to their car. Its just unfortunate it can only gain so much momentum with the mammoth of a mall 1000' away.
I think everybody in the small town I grew up in in Berks county would be shocked to see themselves on this list. They are not part of the Philadelphia region in any way, aside from being fans of the sports teams. Boyertown is the only one you can really make a case for in Berks County. I get that Berks County is part of the CSA now or something - but having spent like 1/3 of my life there it's really a preposterous notion.
Wow, RightonWalnut really started something!
Regarding the Berks County walkable towns: I think a case can be made for all the towns listed; as long as you can WALK out your door and go places on sidewalks rather than having to get in your car for EVERYTHING as in normal suburbia. Of course, some places are more dense, so we grade on a curve here.
The borough of Birdsboro has 5,150 residents in 2014 according to City-Data figures and it is adding residents at about 1% a year. I'm not a resident; I live in the woods outside of town, but I think this IS a cute walkable town because one can walk to: the grocery store, the drug store, the state store, a beer distributor, 2 banks, a dollar store, a community pool, the library, the optometrist, the laundromat, the funeral home, the community center with a fitness center, tennis courts, the post office, 4 NON-CHAIN Italian restaurants, 1 Chinese restaurant, 1 Rita's, 1 community youth theater, the American Legion baseball field, Legion Hall & VFW hall, several churches... This is just off the top of my head.
This is all in a cute little town with a high water quality stream that runs through the middle of it that gets stocked with trout every spring. (So you can walk to go fishing.)
Many people walk in town on the abundant sidewalks. Many people ride bicycles. One can jump on the Schuylkill Bike Trail in Birdsboro and ride to the Philadelphia Art Museum. But we're talking walking here, so I'll just say that if I WERE to live in Birdsboro, there are LOTS of places to walk to.
Kudos to RightonWalnut for starting this thread, but I would really prefer if we focus on the PHILADELPHIA area, and it's suburbs and not stray into trying to cover towns that may be included in the Philadelphia CSA. This is not the Philadelphia CSA forum, it's Philadelphia and it's suburbs. It would be totally appropriate to have the same sort of subject in the Delaware, Philadelphia suburbs in New Jersey or Maryland forums.
The whole project or the Toll portion? Out of all the faux town centers I've seen, this new one in KoP seems to be doing the most right, infusing residents directly in the middle of the shops with tons of park areas and seating throughout, giving people the option to actual walk around or sit outside instead of park run in the store and run back to their car. Its just unfortunate it can only gain so much momentum with the mammoth of a mall 1000' away.
All of it. But in particular, what would an infusion of capital do for parts of lower Germantown Ave or parts of N. Broad St? Or the commercial parts of Ardmore which, no matter what people say about the new things, still has no energy/buzz to it.
All of it. But in particular, what would an infusion of capital do for parts of lower Germantown Ave or parts of N. Broad St? Or the commercial parts of Ardmore which, no matter what people say about the new things, still has no energy/buzz to it.
Well I guess its obvious that after CC and U City, KoP is the hottest area in the region for large scale investments, and I don't feel bad for Ardmore, it has the chance to be great, but the crotchety people of Lower Merion fight tooth and nail any large scale development that could transform sections into the 21st century. I think Media and West Chester are taking the lead on the whole suburban urbanism movement, KoP while not truly walkable is highly invested in that as well.
As for Philadelphia, its a shame a lot of neighborhoods with great potential are essentially forgotten, while suburban towns are getting billions in investment when they were already great areas to begin with. But a lot of it comes down to taxes, poverty, poor performing schools, and a corrupt city counsel that only cares about their own well being. Many of the suburban communities as you know have less hurdles to overcome.
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Raises hand: How about Birdsboro?
