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My wife and I have owned a home in eastern Point Breeze for four and a half years now, and as much as we like city living, we will move out to the suburbs at some point within the next couple of years.
There are several reasons for this:
The commute. My wife is a teacher in Radnor, and her travel to work is absolutely hellish. It takes her over an hour and a quarter each way, and it's not something she can physically keep up long term. And while my commute is easy for now, my job will be moving to Newtown Square next year, so we're both going to be looking at hour-plus commutes. That's just not doable.
Safety: Not that we've encountered many issues, even in PB, but my wife works many insanely long days and often comes home late at night from rehearsals, concerts, etc. She has to struggle to park (which is a whole separate issue), and then try to lug bags and instruments from the car to the house. She's not comfortable doing that alone (obviously), so I have to help her do it. It's a much more stressful ordeal than if we had our own dedicated space in another area.
Space: Speaking of space, our house is very small (we literally don't even functioning closets), so if we want to grow our family, we'll need a house that can support it. And we aren't able to spend the kind of money we'd need to spend to get a bigger house in the core.
Trash: This city is disgusting. Our neighborhood is littered with garbage 24/7, and no matter how hard we try to clean it up and keep our property clean, it just accumulates. There is no will from either the city or the other residents to address this problem, and it's frankly embarrassing anytime we have guests over. Like, people will even throw trash and animal feces in the flowerpots outside our house.
I get the suburbs aren't perfect and they have their own issues, and I understand and respect those who can stay within the city long-term. There are definitely things I will miss, but our needs will require us to live elsewhere at some point.
Yeah that all makes sense and those are certainly sound reasons for relocating. Best of luck where you end up. I will say one thing about the city that isn't mentioned much, and that is housing appreciation. Houses almost never go up in value in the burbs. They drop occasionally, or more frequently, stay pretty much static. If you buy a house for 350k in the burbs, in 10 years, it's probably going to be worth 350k. In the city on the other hand, you can double, triple or quadruple your value (or rent for a good deal over the mortgage). This allows one to expand a wealth footprint that can't be done simply by working and saving. This is a big one for me as I have no intention of working for the Man for the majority of my adult life.
This is not to bash the city.
Given that there could be any number of reasons, I really just would like to learn from the reasoning of people who are thinking about leaving the city.
Some reasons might have nothing to do with the city per se, such as grad school elsewhere, career advancement, job transfer, back to home town, to be closer to relatives, move to take care of elderly parents, etc.
As for me, sure, I think (dream?) about leaving, but realistically for financial reasons I don't see it happening ever. I'm a native Philadelphian, have a paid off house here, most family/friends here, and am nearing retirement, so I doubt I'll ever leave. I was away for a job for 21 years, and moved back. To be honest I do sort of feel trapped. If the paid off house weren't here, I don't think I'd have moved back to the city proper. Maybe a suburb, but not the city. Anyway....
I'm just curious about why others are thinking about/planning/pondering moving....and to where.
Thanks
One reason to stay: PA does not tax retirement income.
We left Philadelphia about a year ago - after living there for 9 years. We moved to a small city in the Midwest (really a small town compared to Philadelphia's size - but a city compared to the size of the town I grew up in).
We left for a bunch of reasons. We found the Philadelphia big city experience underwhelming compared to the last big city we had lived in (Minneapolis - my wife being a St. Paul native) - especially in the walkability, transit, commute area. More than that we just aren't interested in the trajectory American big cities are taking right now and were interested in a smaller community.
There were also financial considerations. I'm sure you make a ton of money in the professional class type jobs in Philadelphia - with plenty of opportunities that don't exist in smaller towns. For blue collar work though, Philadelphia wages don't match the cost of living. We make the same amount of money where we are now as we did in Philadelphia and cost of living is a fraction of the cost. Currently renting a house, about to buy, in nice, quiet, tree-lined, traditionally built neighborhood, minutes from where we work (my wife is able to walk to work, even). Hundreds of dollars per month less than we used to spend to live in an attic in Mt. Airy (which we were even getting a good deal for and was pretty nice).
Like I always said when I lived there, Philadelphia is an interesting city with a lot of problems. Looking forward to visiting again one day.
You left as you said you would but, obviously, still care enough that you took the time to find this thread and comment on it.
I've been to a bunch of small towns, mostly in Nebraska. This is mostly what I saw: few people who looked like me, horrible/disgusting food which I found really odd since there are so many farms/ no gay people living openly/ people who automatically assumed I was from the South or went to church.
I just moved back to the city proper three months ago after living in Northern Virginia for a dozen years and Dallas for two.
I loved "NOVA" and would have been happy living there for the foreseeable future, exponentially rising cost of housing notwithstanding. But then life happened and I was off to Dallas. Dallas or Texas in general is like living on another planet for the typical Northeast Corridor dweller. So I returned home.
As a pedestrian who craves walkability and convenient transit as well as enjoys exploring the neighborhoods in and around Center City, moving into Philadelphia was just common sense for me. Yes, the city is gritty but obviously the city has embraced that via the Flyers mascot. Crime happens in cities but I avoid the areas where it is most likely to happen relative to the city and otherwise stay aware of my surroundings.
At this point, the one thing that would motivate me to leave is that I may eventually want to buy another single-story house. As Philly is essentially a city of rowhomes, that would require me to leave town. I would still ideally find a place in short walking or bus distance to the Regional Rail to be able to work and relax in Center City.
Yeah that all makes sense and those are certainly sound reasons for relocating. Best of luck where you end up. I will say one thing about the city that isn't mentioned much, and that is housing appreciation. Houses almost never go up in value in the burbs. They drop occasionally, or more frequently, stay pretty much static. If you buy a house for 350k in the burbs, in 10 years, it's probably going to be worth 350k. In the city on the other hand, you can double, triple or quadruple your value (or rent for a good deal over the mortgage). This allows one to expand a wealth footprint that can't be done simply by working and saving. This is a big one for me as I have no intention of working for the Man for the majority of my adult life.
Maybe in Cheltenham.
Yes, there’s more potential for appreciation (and, depending on your time horizon, also loss) in many city neighborhoods, but the notion that suburban real estate never appreciates whatsoever is mistaken. This, of course, is just one data point, but Old Wyndmoor is pretty hot right now.
We’re the opposite of you. After a thorough search, upon retiring from a job in Houston, we relocated to Philadelphia in 2011. My suggestion for deciding whether you want to leave the city is to instead draw up a list of attributes and amenenites you are looking for in a place to live in retirement. From there, draw up a short list of places that offer your desired amenities and make visits to them.
For us, we wanted to live in a place which offered us the following: a large city with a vibrant arts and culture scene, walkability/urbanity, 4 seasons, proximity to interesting day trips, near salt water and politically progressive. It, of course, needed to fit our budget. After a visiting cities on both coasts, we landed in Philly. The city has actually exceeded our expectations.
Best of luck in your assessment and search. The good new is that you are under no timeline to make this decision.
To each his/her own but I would have to think this is more about perception than fact. It's totally fair to prefer Minneapolis but I'm not sure you can realistically say it has better transit/walkability.
It's a combination of preference and transit/walkability. It's an argument I made a lot over the years on this forum back when I used to post more. People can take it or leave it. Philadelphia's most walkable neighborhoods trend towards the upscale. We spent time in Center City and the thing about it was, the stuff everyone was walking to: leisure shopping, dining, bars....had nothing to do with the lifestyle we were living. It was pretty underwhelming after moving Minneapolis, where we lived in a cheap, diverse neighborhood where we could do everything by foot or short bus ride. My other reference point for urban living was New York, where the cheap "bad" neighborhoods are also plenty walkable. The equivalent neighborhoods in Philadelphia are barely functional. So if you want that walkability in Philadelphia, you wind up really having to pay for it. Which was the underwhelming part, for us.
On paper, Philadelphia has the better transit system. Subways, regional rails, many 24 hours bus lines. I never had one problem taking Metro Transit in Minneapolis-St. Paul though, and the size of the city is much better suited towards the same basic city transit system: a grid bus network supplemented by some rail. Like anywhere, it depends where you live and how you use it. Once the cool factor of subways and regional rail wore off, SEPTA was pretty frustrating, not entirely its own fault. Everyone knows the state doesn't care much about it, and Philadelphia missed out on its big opportunity to have a real subway system practically a century ago. I'm sure it's better when you don't have to take it far. We relied solely on SEPTA and walking for all our nine years in Philadelphia - living in different places in Center City and NW Philadelphia. Basic fact is Philadelphia needs a lot more than what it has to properly serve its 1.5 million citizens. When I leave work these days, I'm still pretty relieved not to have to stand at Broad and Erie wondering how many 23's with people packed to the brim like sardines are going to pass me by until I get on one. Or if transit is going to completely shut down with zero notice because of a couple inches of snow.
Best one was when my wife had a bus driver who refused to pick anyone up during a certain run - would just zoom by, because she wouldn't allow any school children on her bus, and it was the time school got out. Took months of my wife calling SEPTA to resolve the issue. Of a SEPTA bus driver flagrantly not picking up passengers just because she didn't want to. And it turned her 60 minute commute into a 90 minute commute (Kensington to Mt Airy). For months. Never would have happened in Minnesota, period.
For what it's worth - I ran the numbers for some of the places I lived. Walk score and transit score. The two Minneapolis apartments I had are a 90/74 and a 88/57. Both in regular, affordable neighborhoods outside of downtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01
You left as you said you would but, obviously, still care enough that you took the time to find this thread and comment on it.
I've been to a bunch of small towns, mostly in Nebraska. This is mostly what I saw: few people who looked like me, horrible/disgusting food which I found really odd since there are so many farms/ no gay people living openly/ people who automatically assumed I was from the South or went to church.
I look in now and again. I had heard about the safe injection site debacle and felt the need to see what people were saying.
We're a quiet straight white couple who pretty much keep to ourselves, and we survived for years in the Twin Cities and Philadelphia - sometimes it's alright to be different than other people.
We always had home made food growing up. I will always prefer cooking for myself. As do a lot of people in small towns. Having nice restaurants has to do with economics rather than proximity to agriculture. Modern day dining among the professional class fills the role that household servants once did. In the past, a wealthy family perhaps could have hired one cook. That system is frowned upon these days. Nowadays, you need a critical mass of wealthy people willing to pay another critical mass of menial workers. Which is why the system doesn't work so well in small towns.
It's probably that you grew up in a different time - but openly gay people are not a strange thing anywhere in America anymore.
It's a combination of preference and transit/walkability. It's an argument I made a lot over the years on this forum back when I used to post more. People can take it or leave it. Philadelphia's most walkable neighborhoods trend towards the upscale. We spent time in Center City and the thing about it was, the stuff everyone was walking to: leisure shopping, dining, bars....had nothing to do with the lifestyle we were living. It was pretty underwhelming after moving Minneapolis, where we lived in a cheap, diverse neighborhood where we could do everything by foot or short bus ride. My other reference point for urban living was New York, where the cheap "bad" neighborhoods are also plenty walkable. The equivalent neighborhoods in Philadelphia are barely functional. So if you want that walkability in Philadelphia, you wind up really having to pay for it. Which was the underwhelming part, for us.
On paper, Philadelphia has the better transit system. Subways, regional rails, many 24 hours bus lines. I never had one problem taking Metro Transit in Minneapolis-St. Paul though, and the size of the city is much better suited towards the same basic city transit system: a grid bus network supplemented by some rail. Like anywhere, it depends where you live and how you use it. Once the cool factor of subways and regional rail wore off, SEPTA was pretty frustrating, not entirely its own fault. Everyone knows the state doesn't care much about it, and Philadelphia missed out on its big opportunity to have a real subway system practically a century ago. I'm sure it's better when you don't have to take it far. We relied solely on SEPTA and walking for all our nine years in Philadelphia - living in different places in Center City and NW Philadelphia. Basic fact is Philadelphia needs a lot more than what it has to properly serve its 1.5 million citizens. When I leave work these days, I'm still pretty relieved not to have to stand at Broad and Erie wondering how many 23's with people packed to the brim like sardines are going to pass me by until I get on one. Or if transit is going to completely shut down with zero notice because of a couple inches of snow.
Best one was when my wife had a bus driver who refused to pick anyone up during a certain run - would just zoom by, because she wouldn't allow any school children on her bus, and it was the time school got out. Took months of my wife calling SEPTA to resolve the issue. Of a SEPTA bus driver flagrantly not picking up passengers just because she didn't want to. And it turned her 60 minute commute into a 90 minute commute (Kensington to Mt Airy). For months. Never would have happened in Minnesota, period.
For what it's worth - I ran the numbers for some of the places I lived. Walk score and transit score. The two Minneapolis apartments I had are a 90/74 and a 88/57. Both in regular, affordable neighborhoods outside of downtown.
I look in now and again. I had heard about the safe injection site debacle and felt the need to see what people were saying.
We're a quiet straight white couple who pretty much keep to ourselves, and we survived for years in the Twin Cities and Philadelphia - sometimes it's alright to be different than other people.
We always had home made food growing up. I will always prefer cooking for myself. As do a lot of people in small towns. Having nice restaurants has to do with economics rather than proximity to agriculture. Modern day dining among the professional class fills the role that household servants once did. In the past, a wealthy family perhaps could have hired one cook. That system is frowned upon these days. Nowadays, you need a critical mass of wealthy people willing to pay another critical mass of menial workers. Which is why the system doesn't work so well in small towns.
It's probably that you grew up in a different time - but openly gay people are not a strange thing anywhere in America anymore.
We talked in the past and I think your feelings make sense given your preferences. I remember you generally regarding stuff like Coffeshops/breweries/restaurants as frivolous and thus didn't value the ability to walk to them; whereas you did value being able to walk to groceries and basic clothing. A neighborhood like East Passyunk would obviously be more walkable than a neighborhood like Germantown or Mt. Airy and since you didn't care to live next to all the stuff on the avenue you were unwilling to pay more to live there. But Mt. Airy/Germantown is less convenience for the stuff you do care about as well. Personally I like walking to restaurants/bars etc. I am also happy to drive to get groceries and clothing or shop online but I get that our preferences are flipped.
I also agree with what you say about SEPTA as it relates to living in NW philly. Relying on the regional rail can really suck at times but I rarely had issues when I took the BSL everyday. SEPTA is often not great when it comes to going anywhere that is not center city. I do wonder if you would have been happier living somewhere like Olney between Fern Rock and 5th Street or even parts of the NE or Roxborough.
I lived in South Philly around the same time you live in Minneapolis and split a one bedroom apartment with my ex for $600/mo. My street was very diverse with White, Black, Vietnamese, and Mexican residents. I only had to walk 2 blocks to the subway and could get to my job in center city in 15 minutes door to door. I have several friends in Minneapolis and from what i've gathered is that it is not as cheap as it used to be. FWIW my south philly neighborhood had a walk/transit score of 97/80. My house in Mt. Airy has a score of 80/56.
There are many things I love about Philly. However, my wife and I are moving out of the city this year. We now have two small children and want good schooling for far less than private school costs. I also want them to go to public school, and I don't want to have to enter a lottery or spend $500/square foot to do it. And I'm not willing to have them enrolled with so many other children who have parents that don't support the teachers or teach them manners. And I don't want my kid getting lead poisoning from the poorly maintained schools (as an example of other problems).
There are many ancillary benefits of moving out the city. Being further from the crime, including the increased murders, and away from absolute nonsense like safe injection sites popping up in a neighborhood near you with no notice. The drug addicts in this city are a stifling force. The truth is that many nearby walkable suburbs have great communities, schools, businesses, restaurants, with direct rail access, but without some of the burdens of the city.
My wife and I may move back to the city someday, but not any time soon.
We talked in the past and I think your feelings make sense given your preferences. I remember you generally regarding stuff like Coffeshops/breweries/restaurants as frivolous and thus didn't value the ability to walk to them; whereas you did value being able to walk to groceries and basic clothing. A neighborhood like East Passyunk would obviously be more walkable than a neighborhood like Germantown or Mt. Airy and since you didn't care to live next to all the stuff on the avenue you were unwilling to pay more to live there. But Mt. Airy/Germantown is less convenience for the stuff you do care about as well. Personally I like walking to restaurants/bars etc. I am also happy to drive to get groceries and clothing or shop online but I get that our preferences are flipped.
I also agree with what you say about SEPTA as it relates to living in NW philly. Relying on the regional rail can really suck at times but I rarely had issues when I took the BSL everyday. SEPTA is often not great when it comes to going anywhere that is not center city. I do wonder if you would have been happier living somewhere like Olney between Fern Rock and 5th Street or even parts of the NE or Roxborough.
I lived in South Philly around the same time you live in Minneapolis and split a one bedroom apartment with my ex for $600/mo. My street was very diverse with White, Black, Vietnamese, and Mexican residents. I only had to walk 2 blocks to the subway and could get to my job in center city in 15 minutes door to door. I have several friends in Minneapolis and from what i've gathered is that it is not as cheap as it used to be. FWIW my south philly neighborhood had a walk/transit score of 97/80. My house in Mt. Airy has a score of 80/56.
I actually love the regional rail lines that go through Mt Airy and the northwest. I wish the trains were more frequent, but I find them to be very reliable when commuting during rush hour. It is more expensive to ride than the bus (to some people's preference), but I think it is well worth the money.
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) about leaving, but realistically for financial reasons I don't see it happening ever. I'm a native Philadelphian, have a paid off house here, most family/friends here, and am nearing retirement, so I doubt I'll ever leave. I was away for a job for 21 years, and moved back. To be honest I do sort of feel trapped. If the paid off house weren't here, I don't think I'd have moved back to the city proper. Maybe a suburb, but not the city. Anyway....
