Crime in Philadelphia discussion (Republic: neighborhood, schools, college)

[MarketStEl]

But let's not forget the prevention part.

What I picked up from that ProPublica article was that those activity programs, recreational programs, peer counselors and the like did actually keep a bunch of young men from committing crime instead.

And the pandemic laid them all low. There are some things that a Zoom meeting can't substitute for, and low-motivated kids like the ones these programs reach won't make that transition from real to virtual all that well.

And they certainly cost less than the cops we'd need to arrest them afterwards. You know, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" and all that.

And I think that one of the reasons more Blacks don't sign onto the "tough on crime" position many conservatives espouse is because the conservatives all seem to either ignore or pooh-pooh the prevention part.

Sure, it doesn't work for everyone. But if it works for enough someones, it makes a difference. And again, what I got is that these programs did work for enough someones.

As for the cops themselves: "Defund the police" doesn't play well with Blacks, either, because even most residents of low-income Black neighborhoods want good police protection. But they want the cops to treat them with respect. I don't know what police training is like these days, but what I hear is that many cops see their role as warriors rather than guardians. That needs to be reversed. The news I heard from Camden was that after the new county-run police department replaced the disbanded (for fiscal reasons) city police force, the new chief's first instruction to the officers was, "Get to know the people on the beat you will be patrolling." And that led to all sorts of Officer Friendly-type cookouts and get-togethers.

And crime fell in Camden afterwards.

Seems to me like an approach worth trying.

[henrychen]

Most in Philly would never vote 'R' - even if it were in the best interests of the city. Soooo ... what we need are more level-headed 'Ds.'
I have no faith in that because the party has gone too far Left and the level-headed 'Ds' don't seem to have the will (or the want) to stand up to them.
The 'Rs' are bunch of cowards, too. They should be fighting and screaming about what's being done to the country. We all see it. We all know it. But nobody is doing anything to stop it.

[selhars]

Crime prevention?

Good parenting and morals are the best crime prevention.
I bet many of us here:
-- could have nothing to do all day long and we wouldn't carjack someone
-- could be as angry as we've every been, but would shoot someone over a parking space
-- could be as hungry as we've ever been and not fight over no food at a Golden Corral, or punch a fast food worker in the face
-- could be as broke as ever and not hold up a convenience store

If a "crime prevention" program can show measurable results I'm all for it.
But I don't want to hear that some killer had a bad childhood.

My interest is keeping people safe first, helping -- here's a liberal phrase for you -- "at risk youth" second, and excusing criminal behavior not at all.

[henrychen]

Yes, it begins at home. Unfortunately, we have generation after generation of people who have no business reproducing. And we give and we give and we give to them ... only for them to make life hell for civilized citizens.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by henrychen

Most in Philly would never vote 'R' - even if it were in the best interests of the city. Soooo ... what we need are more level-headed 'Ds.'"

I have no faith in that because the party has gone too far Left and the level-headed 'Ds' don't seem to have the will (or the want) to stand up to them.

The 'Rs' are bunch of cowards, too. They should be fighting and screaming about what's being done to the country. We all see it. We all know it. But nobody is doing anything to stop it.

Well again, Republicans from right here in our metro to 150 miles south on 95 and beyond have not exactly portrayed themselves as sympathetic to current and chronic city issues endured by citizens of color. The Senate and Governor candidate commercials aren't encouraging, either.

I'll grant you that Kenney, Krasner, Gym et al may have their varying level of issues. However, I'd argue for more level-headed, compassionate Republicans willing to divorce themselves from the dominant social rhetoric currently in their party and focus instead on fiscal responsibility. Sam Katz was the last local candidate I recall willing to do that...and that was back in the days when the years started with a "1".

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by selhars

Crime prevention?

Good parenting and morals are the best crime prevention.
I bet many of us here:
-- could have nothing to do all day long and we wouldn't carjack someone
-- could be as angry as we've every been, but would shoot someone over a parking space
-- could be as hungry as we've ever been and not fight over no food at a Golden Corral, or punch a fast food worker in the face
-- could be as broke as ever and not hold up a convenience store

If a "crime prevention" program can show measurable results I'm all for it.
But I don't want to hear that some killer had a bad childhood.

My interest is keeping people safe first, helping -- here's a liberal phrase for you -- "at risk youth" second, and excusing criminal behavior not at all.

The vast majority of us on this sub-forum appear to be (upper-)middle-class+ even if some of us may have come from humbler beginnings.

A lot of the scenarios you present are the result of generations of poverty (although I think restaurant brawls and harassment are somewhat divorced from socioeconomic class). When low-skill jobs are hard to come by, when schools are crumbling, when mental health resources are few, desperate people will make desperate decisions. Why teenagers and younger adults are having kids before they are prepared to take care of them is almost a separate subject itself but often has to do - at least from the mother's side - of wanting to feel like someone loves them, whether it's the baby or the father.

There's something to be said about personal responsibility in the present; I just see a broader, longer picture.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by henrychen

Start coming down hard on the 'little' things like public drug use, tinted windows on vehicles, graffiti, vandalism, littering, shop lifting, vagrancy, loud music coming from vehicles or houses, etc.

Agreed that a "broken windows" policy would be beneficial.

I see no reason for college educated cops. We need cops with guts who are rational. And stop letting the scum of society verbally abuse cops.

IIUC there are criminal justice majors whose goal is to become police officers. Certainly a bachelor's if not also master's later would help them rise in the ranks much faster.

I think we have plenty of cops with "guts": see the Starbucks incident, Walter Wallace and so much more needless aggression and death. We certainly could use more cops who are rational. The trust between police officers and poorer citizens (of color) is largely broken and arguably has been since the days of Rizzo sticking his nightstick under his cummerbund. I'd argue that the endless cycle of verbal abuse between cops and citizens did not start with the citizens.

Stop letting loser 'protesters' who were never loved right by their parents, block traffic, keeping the rest of us from moving about freely. It's insanity.
Yeah, loser, you have a right to protest, but it shouldn't affect the rest of us who are taking care of business.

Your profile of protesters - notwithstanding the out-of-town White supremacists who got ran out quickly by locals - is inaccurate to the point I have to assume you're taking artistic license. Protests are free speech, especially when they are given permits. Protests over the last couple of years have largely centered on police brutality, a concept about which you obviously have a different view. I sympathize with drivers whose commute is complicated by a protest march, particularly when it is spontaneous action. However, my sympathy is even higher for those killed unnecessary by police officers and can understand how Philly residents would protest a tragedy hundreds or thousands of miles away as similar situations happen right here too often.

[coldblooded36]

I think automation/globalization's negative effects have hit places like phila particularly hard. If you look at where the violent crime is spiking, a lot of it is in the rust belt type cities built when this country had a place for an industrial working class (baltimore, Indy, colombus, OH). Today these kids' lives are just void of purpose, theres no type of labor jobs around but they all watch a steady stream of drill rap videos exulting guns.

[LiveFrom215]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

As for the cops themselves: ”Defund the police” doesn't play well with Blacks, either, because even most residents of low-income Black neighborhoods want good police protection. But they want the cops to treat them with respect.

Exactly.

Why this fairly self-evident concept is so difficult for so many at the extremes of the right and left to comprehend (mostly white people who have the luxury of taking respectful and courteous police response largely as a given) never ceases to leave me shaking my head.

One extreme wants to get back to the “good old days” of Rizzo-era police impunity.

The other thinks black and brown people just want free weed and complete lawlessness, because, that’s their condescending, white privileged view on the natural condition of minority communities, and also something-something: “ACAB!”, something-something: “cancel our student loan debt!”, something-something: “I hate you mom and dad!”

But they all want protection and security in their communities. Because of course.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by FindingZen

Well again, Republicans from right here in our metro to 150 miles south on 95 and beyond have not exactly portrayed themselves as sympathetic to current and chronic city issues endured by citizens of color. The Senate and Governor candidate commercials aren't encouraging, either.

I'll grant you that Kenney, Krasner, Gym et al may have their varying level of issues. However, I'd argue for more level-headed, compassionate Republicans willing to divorce themselves from the dominant social rhetoric currently in their party and focus instead on fiscal responsibility. Sam Katz was the last local candidate I recall willing to do that...and that was back in the days when the years started with a "1".

I was a Democrat for Katz myself. His coming thisclose to winning was a testament to his appeal, especially because the reason he lost is because of the bug found in John Street's Council office, which allowed him to wrap himself in the "they're-out-to-get-us" cloth.

selhars: As for "keeping people safe first" and "helping 'at-risk youth' second": has it crossed your mind that the second thing might just contribute to the first by keeping them from causing mayhem in the first place? That was the whole point of my "don't forget the prevention part" argument. Did you read that ProPublica feature? It bugs me that so many people see the two as separate, and even at odds with each other, rather than complementary.

We still have crime even with "tough on crime" policies. Does that therefore mean they are failures?