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I agree re: laughable - as if there was a god, why/how would someone be ‘dialed in’/personally connected (and not others)? Relative to logical reasoning, it’s a narcissistic perspective to believe one has personal insight/knowledge regarding any human’s thoughts - yet alone ‘god’s will’. Hence, I’d take it a step further i.e. it is what it is, because it simply is.
Yeah, but causation is not relative to fate/destiny.
No, it isn't. (I agree.)
It's just the beauty of complexity that makes up the real world we live in. Orderly or chaotic, doesn't mean it's planned. By humans or by any kind of imagined entity capable of planning anything.
I actually find it more intriguing to contemplate, if I want to get purely speculative about it, the notion that has formed the basis for a lot of fiction in recent decades, that every conceivable event that went one way and not another spawned any number of possible alternate realities where said event went a different direction and resulted in different outcomes. Each step in the chain of causation spawning infinite realities. The whole "multiverse" thing.
It is a comfortable idea because of the tendency I have (which I suppose many probably have) to overthink the history of my life and my choices, and to wonder how things could have been different. But that harks back to "humanness" and the natural narcissism of a person's ego. There is no evidence to support this concept other than the FEELING that things had gravity and meaning, where in truth...they probably don't.
And then when I go back to my more zoomed out idea, "if it all blew up into bits, would the cosmos mourn the end of life on Earth?" No. I can't imagine it. Which makes all of these things, no matter how huge they seem to me in any moment, fairly meaningless in the bigger context.
Fun to think about, though. Keeps life interesting!
All of that said, I have my own stories of moments of coincidence that have felt like "fate." This is what I mean when I say that I allow myself the enjoyment of such things with a nod to my own human nature, but not a lot of investment to form a basis of beliefs or theorizing.
The ones that spring to mind relate to my relationship with my husband. There was the time when we were in the process of moving in together. Earlier in my life, I had a relative who was my mentor and inspiration. My Great Aunt, who passed in 2012, years before I met this man I was tying my life to. She meant the world to me, and her wisdom and memory guides me to this day. I briefly lived with her as a teenager and during that time, she "civilized" me. We would go to the symphony and art museums and such. She'd donated a lot to a museum in Cincinnati and we often went...I had a favorite painting, as did she, and we would always visit them first. Also for background, my husband has an obsession with the musical, "Sunday in the Park with George" and the painting that it is centered around. He made me watch the DVD and he cried and I found that...odd...but OK. He has a huge print of the painting. So there I was on moving day, taking a break from the unpacking work, and I sat to look through a photo album I'd unboxed. It was one of my Aunt's. In the back of it, were three postcards of famous paintings...one was her favorite from our museum, another was mine. And the last one, on the last page, by itself, was Georges Seurat's painting A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte. The very one that my now-husband loves so much. I'd never noticed it before, and I don't know why it was there. She'd never mentioned having an interest in it, and it resides in a different museum. I felt as though my beloved and revered Aunt was giving her blessing to my choice to be with this man.
Obviously this is not what was happening. Fact is, I respect and love him because he shares many values that I know I appreciate and respect BECAUSE this relative imprinted them on me. The two of them would have adored one another. They had similar taste in this aspect and she probably also liked the musical but did not think I'd be into it, and never shared it with me. It was not a metaphysical moment, but I allowed myself to enjoy it as though it was one.
Another time, he and I were out on a walk. The background to his story, is that my first childhood crush was an oblivious ten year old boy in my fifth grade math class. One day I'd brought in a rock from the playground and slipped it into his desk, the rock being to my eyes shaped like a heart, and in my mind a declaration of my feelings. When he failed to find it, I shyly prompted him, "I gave you something. It's in your desk." He pulled it out and puzzled over it, "A triangular rock?" and would NOT acknowledge that it was heart shaped. I was so hurt, and never tried to express my crush to him ever again. So on this day, almost 30 years later, on a walk with the man I'd later marry, he picked up a rock off the ground and handed it to me, and as I opened my hand to look at it, he said, "It's heart shaped."
I stopped in my tracks and almost shed tears about it. And then I told him the story.
Again...this is not fate. But I might choose, to let myself enjoy feeling as though it is, or something like it. If only because sometimes it feels nice to take a break from being rational, to enjoy being in love and feeling affirmed in my choices.
There is a theory in time travel that there are unchangable events meant to happen regardless of what you could do to prevent it. If this is the case, and we could only find that out, if we time traveled and started screwing with time- then fate would indeed exist, and I think that would be a big way to figure out if it does. If it does; it's really not my friend or ally, as things happen to me, that I don't want to happen, and defy all that "have hope, think positive" nonsense, that jaded/niave people constantly spout. Fate could be the only reason why us Charlie Browns exist, because it can't be karma- you can get on Karmas good side, if that exist.
Do you believe there is such a thing as fate? For example, do you believe that certain people or events were "fated" to come into your life or to happen to you well in advance of those people actually coming into your life or those events actually happening to you? If so, for what purpose? For if such things are fated, then they must have a predetermined purpose or reason for them happening, yes?
I have come to believe that the universe pushes us along a sort of path, much like a rolling river would push along a body of some sort along its way, and the more you resist that pushing along, the more you suffer. Hence we might have a basis for the notion of "going with the flow." What do you think? Can you share some experiences from your life that seemed fated or predestined? Or, is everything just "random?" Why would you believe in a fated reality versus a random one?
Yes, though my view of fate, destiny or whatever you prefer to call it is not of the classical sort, and rather than "the more you resist that pushing along, the more you suffer"...I'd have the opposite outlook for the most part.
I see fate as being in constant flux. Ever changing from one instant to the next; such changes ever dependent on choices made and actions undertaken. According to Benje Guhyavidya, time is both circular (in its macrocosmic aspect) and linear (in its microcosmic aspect). The former relates to the big picture (i.e. the cosmic egg, big bang, temporal loop, etc.), while the latter relates to time as humans can grasp it. Linear time can be envisioned as a point on a sheet of paper. This point you can call a second, millisecond, zeptosecond, Planck time or whatever floats your boat. Another point emerges from the first and another from the second, and so on, like a string of pearls. From each point countless other lines ('kalsamyati' or timelines) radiate. Each point is a juncture (samdhi), although the Ṛṣis called it catuṣpatha (crossroads). Each subsequent point (or timeline) is entirely dependent on the many variables of the previous point. Such variables include ones choices, actions, and thoughts; karmic influence; to a lesser degree the choices, actions and thoughts of others; and rarely, by the intervention of preternatural agencies. I suppose one could call fate an ever-changing string of apparently random events (possibly under the sway of Chaos Theory) leading to at least a partially deterministic conclusion.
As to resisting fate, the I Ching has well proven over the decades that there is a time to stand still and a time to move forward; a time to submit and a time to resist. I'm not a fan of the Abrahamic-based religions, but I will endorse:
For everything there is a season, a time for every activity under heaven. A time to be born and a time to die. A time to plant and a time to harvest. A time to kill and a time to heal. A time to tear down and a time to build up. A time to cry and a time to laugh. A time to grieve and a time to dance. A time to scatter stones and a time to gather stones. A time to embrace and a time to turn away. A time to search and a time to quit searching. A time to keep and a time to throw away. A time to tear and a time to mend. A time to be quiet and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate. A time for war and a time for peace.
I have found the I Ching quite capable of giving wise counsel to aid one in attracting the positive and avoiding (or at least mitigating) the Karma'Ugra. Having an idea of what to do, and when to do it, goes a long way towards gaining some control over your own destiny. I am heavily influenced by Taoism, and non-action is a integral part of it, but as the verse above illustrates, everything requires its own response. Sometimes life is like shooting the rapids in a wood canoe...you best be proactive at avoiding the jagged rocks!
Do you believe there is such a thing as fate? For example, do you believe that certain people or events were "fated" to come into your life or to happen to you well in advance of those people actually coming into your life or those events actually happening to you? If so, for what purpose? For if such things are fated, then they must have a predetermined purpose or reason for them happening, yes?
I have come to believe that the universe pushes us along a sort of path, much like a rolling river would push along a body of some sort along its way, and the more you resist that pushing along, the more you suffer. Hence we might have a basis for the notion of "going with the flow." What do you think? Can you share some experiences from your life that seemed fated or predestined? Or, is everything just "random?" Why would you believe in a fated reality versus a random one?
EVERYTHING happens for a reason. There, I solved your problem.
Do you believe there is such a thing as fate? For example, do you believe that certain people or events were "fated" to come into your life or to happen to you well in advance of those people actually coming into your life or those events actually happening to you? If so, for what purpose? For if such things are fated, then they must have a predetermined purpose or reason for them happening, yes?
I have come to believe that the universe pushes us along a sort of path, much like a rolling river would push along a body of some sort along its way, and the more you resist that pushing along, the more you suffer. Hence we might have a basis for the notion of "going with the flow." What do you think? Can you share some experiences from your life that seemed fated or predestined? Or, is everything just "random?" Why would you believe in a fated reality versus a random one?
Fate is often associated with karma - the fructified results of action. All action will have results, consequences. Some of which we may not be aware of. In that sense I believe in fate. What good is having a free will if we cannot will the results of our actions? Or even execute the actions of of our will.
This uncertainty of the results of our action is what fate is.
I dont let my belief in fate dictate my actions, but i am fatalistic about the results. And if the results are unexpected, good or bad, i chalk it up to fate. It helps in soothing disappointments and anxiety and to stay balanced. That way it is a useful belief for mental heath.
I dont let my belief in fate dictate my actions, but i am fatalistic about the results. And if the results are unexpected, good or bad, i chalk it up to fate. It helps in soothing disappointments and anxiety and to stay balanced. That way it is a useful belief for mental heath.
How is it ‘useful’ to your mental health to believe you ultimately have no control in your life? To the contrary, I would think such would prove to be detrimental in the long-run. There’s a huge difference between accepting what is (such as when my ex-girlfriend and I tragically lost a baby almost ten years ago) vs. fate. How could anyone say such a sad event (as we all experience of some sort sooner or later) was meant/predetermined to happen; there’d have to crazily be some sort of sadistic puppet-master at play. In other words, how do you explain the fate in which you believe?
Rather, it simply is what it is i.e. it didn’t happen for a reason (nor was it meant to be); it just happened. Time and an active/fulfilling life relative to my girlfriend/life partner as well as career, friends, and personal interests have helped me move past the grief i.e. living. That’s what is useful for mental health, from my perspective; we have to know we are capable of making a difference in our own lives (and for others as well).
How is it ‘useful’ to your mental health to believe you ultimately have no control in your life? To the contrary, I would think such would prove to be detrimental in the long-run. There’s a huge difference between accepting what is (such as when my ex-girlfriend and I tragically lost a baby almost ten years ago) vs. fate. How could anyone say such a sad event (as we all experience of some sort sooner or later) was meant/predetermined to happen; there’d have to crazily be some sort of sadistic puppet-master at play. In other words, how do you explain the fate in which you believe?
Rather, it simply is what it is i.e. it didn’t happen for a reason (nor was it meant to be); it just happened. Time and an active/fulfilling life relative to my girlfriend/life partner as well as career, friends, and personal interests have helped me move past the grief i.e. living. That’s what is useful for mental health, from my perspective; we have to know we are capable of making a difference in our own lives (and for others as well).
I am so sorry for the loss of your baby. That is a tragedy that is very hard to reconcile with. I am glad life events have helped both of you you to move past the grief.
I am not sure how much control we have over "life.". The only thing we have control over is how we act, whether we respond or react. We have no control over the results, the best laid plans etc....
Accepting what IS is the pragmatic approach, and this is what believing in fate means - the uncertainty, the unknown, letting go of the illusion of control we think we have over life is exactly what fate is. There is no huge difference between accepting and calling it fate, unless you are ascribing something more to it, an invisible hand doling out rewards and punishments, as some people do. All we have control over is what is now, the present, not the past nor the future.
Belief in Karma is the answer to why ME? Why am I suffering? Why did I lose my job, why did I get sick? We may have to ask why NOT me? Why should I think my life alone will be easy when there are so many other who suffer more than I? How did I get a lucky break, to have great parents and a good childhood? How did I escape homelessness and abuse? I could have been among the migrants escaping from horrid wars, and yet here I am watching them on TV, feeling sad for them. Why? Karma kind of gives us a blanket - maybe you did something very good, great acts of kindness in some previous life, and so you have this comfortable home. Maybe I was some kind a cruel despot and committed genocide and I am here homeless. I believe thinking that way makes us humble. If we can, we do acts of charity, because that could be me in a shelter. You begin to sense the humanity in each one of us rather than looking at them as "the person in the shelter."
That is just the way I look at it.
I dont let my belief in fate dictate my actions, but i am fatalistic about the results. And if the results are unexpected, good or bad, i chalk it up to fate. It helps in soothing disappointments and anxiety and to stay balanced. That way it is a useful belief for mental heath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
There is no huge difference between accepting and calling it fate , unless you are ascribing something more to it, an invisible hand doling out rewards and punishments, as some people do. All we have control over is what is now, the present, not the past nor the future.
I strongly disagree there isn’t a difference between acceptance vs. fate i.e. it’s the entire point. :-) Obviously, that one accepts something happened (it is what it is) in no way corresponds to the notion it ‘happened for a reason’ or that such was predetermined.
In your mind, since you clearly stated you believe in fate, who/what is the puppet-master re: tragic events (such as the loss of a child); and, more importantly, what would be the purpose of such?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
I am so sorry for the loss of your baby. That is a tragedy that is very hard to reconcile with. I am glad life events have helped both of you you to move past the grief.
Thanks; it was almost a decade ago (and the baby’s mother is my ex-girlfriend). That said, it was not ‘life events’ but a combination of time and an active/fulfilling life relative to my girlfriend/life partner as well as career, friends, and personal interests that have helped me put it into perspective. In other words, a passion for life (and learning) in and of itself, as nothing will change it.
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