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44 Monroe is a failure? Do you know what the vacancy rate is at 44 Monroe? Beside the penthouses, which were just finished and made available for rent, ZERO. You consider that a failure? Yes, it was a failure when they were condos with the prices they were asking, very very few people were willing to make that kind of purchase, but as a rental property, it's done fantastic. You say if it was just a success, you'd see more going up and it's just not happening. What about the Concord Eastridge apartments that are going up right now? Or the planned apartments above the Hotel Monroe at Cityscape (currently in the permitting stage)? I don't even see how the price or comparing it to what you could get a house for is relevant...what you don't seem to grasp is that not everyone wants a suburban home with a 3 car garage and a yard. I am going to guess you probably don't see the need for expensive cars either and probably think why would anyone buy or lease a BMW when you can have a Kia which can get you to the same places.
Again, I'm not saying we should push these things onto people and make them go there...but if there is a need there, then why not build? You actually seem opposed to building anything downtown, even if there is a need.
Why do you suggest that everyone who moves to Phoenix does not want an urban lifestyle? People move here for all sort of reasons, maybe it's a job, or maybe it's family...that doesn't mean they only moved here to live in suburbia. What about people who were born here? Personally, I came here when I was 11, and my parents came because their jobs moved here.
And really? Food court? That's your suggestion? How does a food court compare to the kind of quality restaurants you usually get in city centers? And the vibe and atmosphere? How is that even a serious suggestion?
I think what the OP was implying was that there is a limit to what the market will be albe to handle in Phoenix. I would venture to say that 9 out of 10 people do not move here to live in downtown, in a condo, highrise building. If they are filling up and people are moving in then fine. The city seems to focused on downtown and not enough on the neighborhoods that account for most of the tax revenue and make this city what it is.
I think many are just getting so sick of the activists. I just went around with one on another page who thinks that the city should demand that parks, plants or some development be done in vacant lots downtown. So in other words force property owners to build on their land. Maybe someone should look at the over regulation of this city on permits and fees as to why development is not as fast as it should be. It was also stated by this person that the heat island effect is made worse by these open lots!
The activists have no idea what they want. They are like fans in a mosh pit! More buildings means more heat island...you can't have it both ways. Sure some things can be done like plants but it will not offset all the steel and concrete.
I actually love the look of those dirt lots. They provide rugged backdrops that I think compliments the urban core. It's neat how you can have a modern commercial building with a dirt lot right next to it. The hard packed gravel provides a functional parking surface similar to asphalt. They also make for a laid back vibe, kind of beach-like when you have the palm trees around the lots. And I don't know about you, but I love the sound of walking on gravel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981
It was also stated by this person that the heat island effect is made worse by these open lots!
44 Monroe is a failure? Do you know what the vacancy rate is at 44 Monroe? Beside the penthouses, which were just finished and made available for rent, ZERO. You consider that a failure? Yes, it was a failure when they were condos with the prices they were asking, very very few people were willing to make that kind of purchase, but as a rental property, it's done fantastic. You say if it was just a success, you'd see more going up and it's just not happening. What about the Concord Eastridge apartments that are going up right now? Or the planned apartments above the Hotel Monroe at Cityscape (currently in the permitting stage)? I don't even see how the price or comparing it to what you could get a house for is relevant...what you don't seem to grasp is that not everyone wants a suburban home with a 3 car garage and a yard. I am going to guess you probably don't see the need for expensive cars either and probably think why would anyone buy or lease a BMW when you can have a Kia which can get you to the same places.
Again, I'm not saying we should push these things onto people and make them go there...but if there is a need there, then why not build? You actually seem opposed to building anything downtown, even if there is a need.
Why do you suggest that everyone who moves to Phoenix does not want an urban lifestyle? People move here for all sort of reasons, maybe it's a job, or maybe it's family...that doesn't mean they only moved here to live in suburbia. What about people who were born here? Personally, I came here when I was 11, and my parents came because their jobs moved here.
And really? Food court? That's your suggestion? How does a food court compare to the kind of quality restaurants you usually get in city centers? And the vibe and atmosphere? How is that even a serious suggestion?
I stand by my assertion that if 44 Monroe was a success, there would be more highrises going up. According to Concord Eastridge's own website their housing is basically spillover housing for students. Additionally, it's nowhere near the size of 44 Monroe. 44 Monroe's model of a 30+ floor residential tower will not be emulated in downtown Phoenix again. It just didn't work out.
99.9% of people in the Valley live in low density apartments or houses, so I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here DON'T want this type of housing. It would exacerbate the heat island to have all this concrete downtown. It ruins the quality of life for so many. Have you ever thought about the people who live adjacent to downtown Phoenix who would have to deal with the negative effects of increased urbanism? More drunks walking the streets, more pollution, much hotter nights, more crime, etc. It's just too much.
People do not come here for urban living. This is not the place to find it. We are basically a suburb of nowhere with 4.5 million people. It's just reality.
A food court would take care of your desire to people watch, eat, and shop. What vibe and atmosphere are you looking for? Why does the vibe and atmosphere have to be in Phoenix? We should leave the highrises to the cities they're in and focus on low impact development to our downtown (parks, public gathering spaces, etc).
Where to start? Where to start? Simply put; a city with a successful downtown is successful altogether. Provide examples? Denver, Portland, Seattle, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Chicago, the list goes on. Shouldn't it be obvious, if not common sense; when a city has a strong beating heart the arties and veins (the suburbs) will also follow.
Issue one: 99.9% of people in the Valley live in low density apartments or houses, so I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here DON'T want this type of housing 99.9% of the people don't want to live in urban Phoenix or 99.9% can't because there isn't enough housing? It's foolish to automatically assume that nobody in the valley wants to live in downtown. Same as saying 99.9% of everybody who moves here wants a one-story home with a white picket fence. We aren't a city made up of retirees who value Sun City. Not to mention, Phoenix was just recently polled as one of the youngest cities with a median age in the 30s. Generation Y, I'm sure you've heard of, is the game-changer because over 86% of them are looking to find a place in an urban enviroment. Combine the two and hubba hubba, you have quite a few people looking for a place downtown. (I should know. I'm one of them.) So the theory that nobody in the valley wants to lie downtown is false. 44 Monroe is a failure.
To be honest, I laughed when I read this. Since 2007 downtown has been longing for new lodging and residence for the yuppies to take. 44 Monroe filled that gap with great views, high prices, and a central location. It was cloud 9 for those who could afford it. However after the housing market crashed, which brought high-end condos to master planned communites to a halt, only 6% was occupied. When the market was sluggish to recover after several years, many developers across the nation decided rental units would be perfect; and they were right. Less than a year after converted to rental apartments the occupancy rate at 44 Monroe was hovering just below 90% (2011). A great success story if you ask me. Now housing downtown is ever increasing with Concord Eastridge, Portland 2, Lofts on Mckinley, the eventual apartment tower at Cityscape ( which will approach 25 stories), and several more projects. It's safe to say there is demand for living space downtown.
The city seems to focused on downtown and not enough on the neighborhoods that account for most of the tax revenue and make this city what it is. This is because since 1948, the city of Phoenix and the towns of Mesa, Gilbert, Tempe, etc. at the time decided to focus of the suburbs rather than the central city and that proved to be a huge mistake. For over 50 years, the central city (Downtown and Midtown) took a dive in buisness, lost residents, increased in crime rates; it was the white flight if you will. For over 50 years, the borders of the Phoenix metro extended tens of miles beyond mountains. It was getting harder and harder for people to get to work; keep in mind no freeways existed in the Phx area yet. Crime rates in the Central City were an endemic. When the 80s came around, the crack epidemic was in full swing, the Salt River was flooding, and a reportor was killed in a car bombing in Midtown. The city had had enough. So throughout the 1990s and continuing on through the 2000s to present day, a primary focus was to clean up the central city. However, this just so happened to conincide with the increased trend of the younger generation wanting to live in the city. So now the city is helping accomidate these people revitalize our once burdened core and turn it into a place that it once was before. The suburbanies have had 60 years of the city giving them the strip malls, seas of parking, and master planned communites that they wanted; it's time for the actual city itself to do some growth.
I'm going to shock everyone and agree with Miamiman on this...
99.9% of people living in Metro Phoenix do not want to live in high density, urban high rises. He is right.
Fortunately, the Valley has 4.2 Million residents. .1% of that is 4,200 people which would mean how many new condo/apartment units...around 2,000, or 8-10 high-rises the size of 44 Monroe? I think that would immensely help downtown life and as Miamiman stated, there are that many poeple in Phoenix who do want this type of housing.
44 Monroe is a failure? Do you know what the vacancy rate is at 44 Monroe? Beside the penthouses, which were just finished and made available for rent, ZERO. You consider that a failure? Yes, it was a failure when they were condos with the prices they were asking, very very few people were willing to make that kind of purchase, but as a rental property, it's done fantastic. You say if it was just a success, you'd see more going up and it's just not happening. What about the Concord Eastridge apartments that are going up right now? Or the planned apartments above the Hotel Monroe at Cityscape (currently in the permitting stage)? I don't even see how the price or comparing it to what you could get a house for is relevant...what you don't seem to grasp is that not everyone wants a suburban home with a 3 car garage and a yard.
MiamiMan doesn't get it. I have argued similar points with him prior to this ... even as far back as three or four years ago, and he is still deeply engulfed in his NIMBYism and anti everything viewpoints about urban planning & development. What I found hilarious is his claim that he has a vested interest in his community. Well, I think just about all of us can claim that we are all vested in our community. Some of us natives and long term residents are even more so than he and other relative newcomers are due to our tenure. His vision for increased suburban landscape is becoming outdated. There is definitely a growing interest in revitalizing the central core, as has been evidenced in recent years. As for his claim that more tall buildings would increase the heat island effect, too late. The urban heat island is already a major factor why low temperatures are much higher than they used to be ... and much of it is attributed to the suburban sprawl of more concrete, asphalt, and rock lawns in what used to be the outlying areas. Many of these suburban/exurban areas that he prefers used to be largely agricultural many years ago, and that alone contributed to cooler nights & early mornings for the whole Valley at one time.
There are two main reasons for why many additional highrises proposed for downtown haven't materialized: the economic downturn, and NIMBYs. Some, such as CityScape, 44 Monroe, and Central Park East went through as planned and have been successful. The W Hotel project was all set to break ground, but was killed off by a lawsuit started by a Chinese activist group. Other projects are either on hold, or will never be built due to the fallout from the burst of the real estate bubble ... that had a major impact on development all over, not just downtown. If anybody wants to see how the economic downturn has impacted anything, look at far flung suburbs like Maricopa, Buckeye, Surprise, etc. Talk about vacant buildings and foreclosed residences! The vacancy rate in those places is much higher than in downtown Phoenix!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy
Again, I'm not saying we should push these things onto people and make them go there...but if there is a need there, then why not build? You actually seem opposed to building anything downtown, even if there is a need.
Why do you suggest that everyone who moves to Phoenix does not want an urban lifestyle? People move here for all sort of reasons, maybe it's a job, or maybe it's family...that doesn't mean they only moved here to live in suburbia. What about people who were born here? Personally, I came here when I was 11, and my parents came because their jobs moved here.
I would take the "suburban enthusiasts" with a grain of salt. They talk out of both sides of their mouth on many points, and are attempting to push "their" lifestyle on the rest of us. As you correctly stated, not everybody moved to the Phoenix area for the same reasons. Not everybody wants a stucco house in a far flung suburban area. If they want the suburban lifestyle, fine. Nothing wrong with having a good mix of urban and suburban design. Not everybody came here for retirement or the "laid back lifestyle" (which anymore is a joke because of how big we are). My parents came here in the 1950s mainly because my dad was offered a higher paying job at Motorola. I am a native, and I'm certainly not here for things like the weather or climate. There are much more important things to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Horizons
I actually love the look of those dirt lots. They provide rugged backdrops that I think compliments the urban core. It's neat how you can have a modern commercial building with a dirt lot right next to it. The hard packed gravel provides a functional parking surface similar to asphalt. They also make for a laid back vibe, kind of beach-like when you have the palm trees around the lots. And I don't know about you, but I love the sound of walking on gravel.
Are you kidding??? The vacant dirt lots are EYESORES. Not only are they unsightly just being empty, they also attract weeds, trash, graffiti, homeless, and overall blight, making them even more unappealing. They have a way of detracting from an entire neighborhood, and they can lower property values. Also, if you want a laid back vibe that resembles a beach, the central core is not the place for it. I even wrote to former Mayor Phil Gordon one time and suggested that Phoenix should not be annexing any more land until all the vacant land is built upon.
Many things make up a great city besides the skyline. A well-defined skyline is what people notice though, and it makes a good 1st impression. [mod cut-- off topic] . . . Phoenix doesn't have a great skyline.
Last edited by observer53; 08-27-2012 at 09:56 AM..
Where to start? Where to start? Simply put; a city with a successful downtown is successful altogether. Provide examples? Denver, Portland, Seattle, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Chicago, the list goes on. Shouldn't it be obvious, if not common sense; when a city has a strong beating heart the arties and veins (the suburbs) will also follow.
Issue one: 99.9% of people in the Valley live in low density apartments or houses, so I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here DON'T want this type of housing
99.9% of the people don't want to live in urban Phoenix or 99.9% can't because there isn't enough housing? It's foolish to automatically assume that nobody in the valley wants to live in downtown. Same as saying 99.9% of everybody who moves here wants a one-story home with a white picket fence. We aren't a city made up of retirees who value Sun City. Not to mention, Phoenix was just recently polled as one of the youngest cities with a median age in the 30s. Generation Y, I'm sure you've heard of, is the game-changer because over 86% of them are looking to find a place in an urban enviroment. Combine the two and hubba hubba, you have quite a few people looking for a place downtown. (I should know. I'm one of them.) So the theory that nobody in the valley wants to lie downtown is false. 44 Monroe is a failure.
To be honest, I laughed when I read this. Since 2007 downtown has been longing for new lodging and residence for the yuppies to take. 44 Monroe filled that gap with great views, high prices, and a central location. It was cloud 9 for those who could afford it. However after the housing market crashed, which brought high-end condos to master planned communites to a halt, only 6% was occupied. When the market was sluggish to recover after several years, many developers across the nation decided rental units would be perfect; and they were right. Less than a year after converted to rental apartments the occupancy rate at 44 Monroe was hovering just below 90% (2011). A great success story if you ask me. Now housing downtown is ever increasing with Concord Eastridge, Portland 2, Lofts on Mckinley, the eventual apartment tower at Cityscape ( which will approach 25 stories), and several more projects. It's safe to say there is demand for living space downtown.
The city seems to focused on downtown and not enough on the neighborhoods that account for most of the tax revenue and make this city what it is.
This is because since 1948, the city of Phoenix and the towns of Mesa, Gilbert, Tempe, etc. at the time decided to focus of the suburbs rather than the central city and that proved to be a huge mistake. For over 50 years, the central city (Downtown and Midtown) took a dive in buisness, lost residents, increased in crime rates; it was the white flight if you will. For over 50 years, the borders of the Phoenix metro extended tens of miles beyond mountains. It was getting harder and harder for people to get to work; keep in mind no freeways existed in the Phx area yet. Crime rates in the Central City were an endemic. When the 80s came around, the crack epidemic was in full swing, the Salt River was flooding, and a reportor was killed in a car bombing in Midtown. The city had had enough. So throughout the 1990s and continuing on through the 2000s to present day, a primary focus was to clean up the central city. However, this just so happened to conincide with the increased trend of the younger generation wanting to live in the city. So now the city is helping accomidate these people revitalize our once burdened core and turn it into a place that it once was before. The suburbanies have had 60 years of the city giving them the strip malls, seas of parking, and master planned communites that they wanted; it's time for the actual city itself to do some growth.
I think we are goint to witness a disaster in the making if what you think is what Stanton and the Council think. What percentage of the population does downtown make when compared to the overall population of the city? Lets go high and go with 5%. Do you honestly think that if the trend continues we are going to sit back and allow our neighborhoods to go to pot as the 95% while the focus is put on a joke of a downtown? Why? Because some think that because Chicago, Denver and others have "this" we in PHX should have it?
IF development downtown means letting the outer suburbs of this city go bad, this progress with downtown will stop when the 95% of the people of this city get enough. We live where we live because we like it quiet, we like good schools, we like yards, we like living our lives without the city, preservationists and activists down our throats!
I know some people will disagree with me but I think downtown Phoenix has come a long way and has a decent enough skyline.
It really has improved since 16 years ago when I moved here, back then it wasn't anything like what a big city downtown should be other than a scattering of tall buildings.
Now there are sports stadiums, concert auditoriums, hotels, condominiums, more shops and dining establishments, light rail, and the downtown ASU campus. None of this existed when I came here.
I think what could use some spark is midtown Phoenix, it looks a little like downtown with the office towers but there's not much to do and it's pretty dead on nights and weekends.
Downtown Phoenix has come a long way. The skyline could use some improvement, but it's not necessarily a tall building that makes a good downtown, it's people and restaurants and shops and stores. Look at Scottsdale. That's a vibrant downtown and the tallest building is, what, 250 feet? What downtown Phoenix needs is more retail, more stores, more shops (especially a grocery store), more restaurants to bring in people (and with those things, people who want to be nearby will follow.) I could see there being a downtown "corridor" along Central, which is starting to fill in and that would be fine too. Would remove some of the dirt lots too.
Those of the NIMBY persuasion I just don't understand. So you prefer DC Ranch. Fine. What possible harm could a vibrant downtown do to your suburban community?
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