Is Phoenix (city) too sprawling? (Mesa, Glendale: apartments, condos, school districts)

[azdr0710]

oh man....all this hair-pulling and lamenting over sprawl........

sprawl in most Western cities was inevitable and unavoidable since the first person arrived....no way at all to avoid it with so much land....it's so much cheaper to build out rather than up and buyers will always demand the least expensive house and the only way to do that is go out onto cheaper land....developers were/are only answering that demand.....

among Western cities, only in "land-locked" places like Portland, Seattle, San Francisco does it make economic sense to build up (more density).....attempts to legislate anti-sprawl development will inevitably end up in the courts amid cries of elitism and discrimination

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by azdr0710

among Western cities, only in "land-locked" places like Portland, Seattle, San Francisco does it make economic sense to build up (more density).....attempts to legislate anti-sprawl development will inevitably end up in the courts amid cries of elitism and discrimination

This is what is exactly going on with Tempe, which is landlocked by Phoenix to the west, Scottsdale to the north, Mesa to the east, and Chandler to the south and southeast, all of which are already developed near the portions that border Tempe. Because of Tempe being landlocked, Tempe has to build up, and now it has the highest population density in the entire Valley (even higher than Phoenix).

[WSPHXPELON]

Personally I would like to see some more density in the Metro PHX area. And I didn't vote in your poll, but I did vote with my dollars by buying a home in a more dense/urban part of the city (downtown phx). As long as people keep buying homes in these far-flung areas sprawl will continue. Personally I think a lot of people are sick of living so far out and this is being reflected in their RE choices. I really think in 10 years downtown PHX and Tempe will be much more dense. The outer suburbs though, I really doubt it...

[Madhatter015]

Yes Phoenix is too sprawly, it's non-stop Suburbia, not a true big city!!

[off topic]

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by azdr0710

oh man....all this hair-pulling and lamenting over sprawl........

sprawl in most Western cities was inevitable and unavoidable since the first person arrived....no way at all to avoid it with so much land....it's so much cheaper to build out rather than up and buyers will always demand the least expensive house and the only way to do that is go out onto cheaper land....developers were/are only answering that demand.....

among Western cities, only in "land-locked" places like Portland, Seattle, San Francisco does it make economic sense to build up (more density).....attempts to legislate anti-sprawl development will inevitably end up in the courts amid cries of elitism and discrimination

LA and SD are also being forced to build upward due to the fact that the sprawl is so severe that there is hardly any land left to be developed.

[KurtAZ]

I would have to say that the market is going to dictate what gets built. If people wanted to live in high-rises here...a developer would probably build to accommodate that desire. Since a lot of people come here for the open spaces and feeling of NOT being right on top of each other...this is what a developer will build to. A few years back at a networking event, I did ask a home builder member why they didn't try and fill in vacant lots and revitalize neighborhoods downtown...his response was that it was too costly to build and the return they see in a sub-urban neighborhood is much more desirable. That and a lot of people who buy in Phoenix that are worth a lot of money WANT the property and big house in Troon or Desert Mountain because they live full time in an apartment in Chicago or NYC. Their vacation home is to get away from all those people.

Just my .02

[Voebe]

Absolutely too sprawling - which leads to splintering of the metro area, wasted gas, ecological problems due to paving ever more roads, etc.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

I would have to say that the market is going to dictate what gets built. If people wanted to live in high-rises here...a developer would probably build to accommodate that desire.

Absolutely! Before the economic downturn of 2008, there were many plans by various developers to build upward in the form of highrises because there was an increased demand. Some of the developments came to fruition, but many others did not. The ones which didn't were for two main reasons: the downturn of the economy, and NIMBY protests. I blame NIMBYs for killing two highrise projects: the W Hotel, which would have been a 39 story structure downtown (scrapped over a lawsuit from a Chinese preservation group), and the Trump building on Camelback (scrapped because nearby residents raised a fuss about "their" mountain views being blocked).

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

Since a lot of people come here for the open spaces and feeling of NOT being right on top of each other...this is what a developer will build to. A few years back at a networking event, I did ask a home builder member why they didn't try and fill in vacant lots and revitalize neighborhoods downtown...his response was that it was too costly to build and the return they see in a sub-urban neighborhood is much more desirable. That and a lot of people who buy in Phoenix that are worth a lot of money WANT the property and big house in Troon or Desert Mountain because they live full time in an apartment in Chicago or NYC. Their vacation home is to get away from all those people.
Just my .02

And having open spaces is fine too. I just find it rather hypocritical that the ones who want the far flung suburban/exurban lifestyle (peaceful, less traffic, and being away from the "city life") still want to have a Phoenix address and take advantage of the city services. I say that you shouldn't expect to have it both ways. If you don't want to be a part of the "city", don't live in the city of Phoenix. I think the city limits should have ended at either Bell Road or the 101 freeway years ago, and anything north of there could have been either a separate municipality or unincorporated.

[AZDesertBrat]

Originally Posted by chaparrito

I'm a native, moved out of the valley in 78.
Thinking about sprawl, seems to me that it's been nothing but sprawl since shortly after WW2 or maybe Korea. I grew up near 24th street and Indian School. That area, hardly what would now be described as part of the sprawl, definitely was in those days - the 50s and 60s. Heck, Camelback was gravel east of 48th back then.
The view was of endless, cheap desert waiting to be developed, and made green by endless, cheap water. I am not sure that vision has changed much.
Though the valley is only an hour and a bit away from me, I rarely get down there anymore. To go anywhere within the valley once you get there takes as long as it took to get to the city limits. The endless sea of beige stucco stretching all the way to the Superstitions saddens me. Inevitable? Maybe. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Another native here and I couldn't agree with you more. Recently I've had to make some trips to the Valley and, since I rarely do this, it always surprises me how much it has all changed. And if I didn't already have good knowledge of our streets, etc. I'd be one lost puppy sometimes. lol Thankfully I know the 'shortcuts'.

I don't like the changes in the Valley much but I am at least realistic about it and know that it's not going to end. Your comment about the "endless sea of beige stucco" reminded me of one time I went through Las Vegas and saw how much it had changed. It was also a "sea" of those houses and miles red roof tiles.

My family lived in South Phoenix...when it was still a pretty good place to live. I remember the gravel roads around the Valley. Out in the country back then...

[blisterpeanuts]

A friend of mine grew up in Phoenix, back when the northern half of Glendale and Phoenix was still farmland, ranches, and desert. I never saw that version of Phoenix, and it seems like there are just some relics as you go north on 51st Ave. -- a few small horse ranches here and here.

I saw similar growth happen in Okla. City which is where I grew up. Lake Hefner used to be "in the country" and we would ride our bikes out around the lake and into the farm country beyond. Now it's suburban tracts for many miles north of there, a new expressway, etc. Makes me sad. But that's progress, I guess.

The thing that strikes me about Phoenix after living there 4 years, is how uneven the development is, kind of ratty and under developed in the central areas, tony and nice in the far north, Scottsdale and some of the other burbs and nearby towns. I hope that they're able to continue gentrifying the central area and draw young families back in, with cool restaurants, light rail, Art Walk etc., and make it more of a happening place. Seems to be moving in that direction, maybe stalled by the recession.

Phoenix has a tremendous amount of potential and I'm sad not to be living there; work took me back east.
Hope to spend more time there in the future.