Tempe embraces urban transformation (Phoenix, Scottsdale: fit in, credit card, hotel)
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I attribute much of it to illegal immigration. And I don't view the decline of Phoenix as positive. It is unfortunate. What galls me about Phoenix is that for all the time I have lived here, they have been wasting money trying to be what they are not - an urban, eastern style city. From lasers, to ice rinks to light rail, they keep throwing good money after bad trying to prop up a declining downtown. They made their own mess there years ago when they tore down the warehouse district and Chinese section, destroying whatever unique character the place might have had. I could go on, but this thread is about Tempe, home to the one of the largest universities in the country, trying not to be a college town. So I will leave it at that.
Wow, when you put it like that, it's interesting to think about. Phoenix not wanting to be what it is, Tempe not wanting to be what it is. Urban transformation in Tempe is good, but it would have been wonderful to get State Farm in downtown Phoenix, maybe renovating some of the existing old buildings, and keep Tempe as a thriving college town. Not because I don't like Tempe, but because downtown Phoenix needs an infusion, and right now its major feedstock is ASU's downtown campus.
Why can't Phoenix attract big businesses downtown? I don't get it.
New2colo, in my view, was right on when he talked about cities within the metro competing with each other. It's an interesting situation because the area is so spread out, and it would be nice to see each city with a thriving downtown and local economy. But I think ideally the 'burbs should be thriving commercial centers with some jobs while the area's true economic engine should be in Phoenix.
Think how vibrant the city would be if it had even half of Scottsdale's and Tempe's employers. Phoenix's poor job at recruiting business has probably influenced how sprawled the area is. No need to build close in if the jobs aren't in the city anyway.
I think Phoenix's (and Tempe's) effort to become dense and urban is a good thing. I don't see it as wanting to be an Eastern city. Downtown LA is undergoing a transformation, Seattle is walkable and thriving and so is San Francisco. I hear Denver has a nice, vibrant downtown, too. Many people, including myself, are tired of spending their lives in cars and want to live, work, and play in a small, easily accessible area.
And as new2colo mentioned, many of the country's most thriving urban centers are blue. In fact, most big cities are. Even downtown Atlanta and Dallas have strong Democratic contingents.
I attribute much of it to illegal immigration. And I don't view the decline of Phoenix as positive. It is unfortunate. What galls me about Phoenix is that for all the time I have lived here, they have been wasting money trying to be what they are not - an urban, eastern style city. From lasers, to ice rinks to light rail, they keep throwing good money after bad trying to prop up a declining downtown. They made their own mess there years ago when they tore down the warehouse district and Chinese section, destroying whatever unique character the place might have had. I could go on, but this thread is about Tempe, home to the one of the largest universities in the country, trying not to be a college town. So I will leave it at that.
Again with illegal immigration? What does that have to do with Phoenix declining and Tempe becoming an urban center?
Phoenix is not trying to be anything like an eastern city, there is nothing in the entire metropolitan area that resemles New York, New Jersey, or Boston.
I think Phoenix has tried to copy cities like Los Angeles which is unfortunate because it should be learning from the mistakes of Los Angeles and striving to be better.
Tempe will always be a college town, I don't think any kind of urban transformation can change that fact.
But there is nothing wrong with Tempe trying to be more than just ASU, bars, and nightlife, I welcome the progress.
Phoenix isn't trying to copy anyone. They are trying to do the right thing. Creating an urban infrastructure with a central core will lead to more jobs particularly white collar jobs. It will be difficult to compete with other major metropolitan in terms of developing your financial, legal and corporate infrastructure when you fail to have a developed centralized urban location. Even so called suburban cities like Dallas, San Antonio, Houston and Atlanta have impressive and well developed downtowns. Because Phoenix is wanting to do this, suddenly they are trying to copy other cities? That's like criticizing the student getting bad grades for wanting to copy the kid getting A's. That's what you want to do...copy good things. Who cares about being an original. I would rather be a successful copycat than an original loser. This reminds me of the famous skit of Dave Chappelle "Sometimes Keeping it Real Goes Wrong" Some of you get into this mentality of "Well Phoenix needs to stop trying to copy and keep it real" Sorry, I don't want to keep it real. I want to be a real city. That's what successful anything does...copy good things. Some of you need to get over this mentality of "We're just trying to copy L.A." So what...copy L.A. Copy success.
Tempe gets it. It's sad that some of you don't
Last edited by azriverfan.; 08-09-2014 at 12:17 AM..
Phoenix isn't trying to copy anyone. They are trying to do the right thing. Creating an urban infrastructure with a central core will lead to more jobs particularly white collar jobs. It will be difficult to compete with other major metropolitan in terms of developing your financial, legal and corporate infrastructure when you fail to have a developed centralized urban location. Even so called suburban cities like Dallas, San Antonio, Houston and Atlanta have impressive and well developed downtowns. Because Phoenix is wanting to do this, suddenly they are trying to copy other cities? That's like criticizing the student getting bad grades for wanting to copy the kid getting A's. That's what you want to do...copy good things. Who cares about being an original. I would rather be a successful copycat than an original loser. This reminds me of the famous skit of Dave Chappelle "Sometimes Keeping it Real Goes Wrong" Some of you get into this mentality of "Well Phoenix needs to stop trying to copy and keep it real" Sorry, I don't want to keep it real. I want to be a real city. That's what successful anything does...copy good things. Some of you need to get over this mentality of "We're just trying to copy L.A." So what...copy L.A. Copy success.
Tempe gets it. It's sad that some of you don't
I actually think Phoenix isn't copying enough. It's cowtowing to developers and not doing enough of the right things.
It tore down way too many historic buildings and I'm sorry but CityScape is a monstrosity. It's nice to have thriving commercial down there but it's essentially a downtown shopping mall that encourages people to stay inside and not walk around. Phoenix should have required street-facing development and encouraged smaller, boutique retail and restaurants. Instead, it's a lot of chains like the rest of the Valley.
Phoenix should study other successful urban transformations and take appropriate steps. Instead, it's relying on developers to do the job for them but a developer's job is to make money, not plan a thriving urban environment. That's Phoenix's job and I think they need a stronger, more informed arm to be successful at it.
I actually think Phoenix isn't copying enough. It's cowtowing to developers and not doing enough of the right things.
It tore down way too many historic buildings and I'm sorry but CityScape is a monstrosity. It's nice to have thriving commercial down there but it's essentially a downtown shopping mall that encourages people to stay inside and not walk around. Phoenix should have required street-facing development and encouraged smaller, boutique retail and restaurants. Instead, it's a lot of chains like the rest of the Valley.
Phoenix should study other successful urban transformations and take appropriate steps. Instead, it's relying on developers to do the job for them but a developer's job is to make money, not plan a thriving urban environment. That's Phoenix's job and I think they need a stronger, more informed arm to be successful at it.
Phoenix was set to build a W hotel in downtown Phoenix. Robert Sarver was part of that investment team. The project was opposed due to the attempt to preserve a historic building. That opposition derailed that project and negatively impacted downtown Phoenix for years. The W would have brought other entertainment venues, hotels and restaurants. It was a major blow, all because of some ill conceived effort to preserve some dilapidated building. Furthermore, Donald Trump had plans to build a high rise in the Biltmore around the same time. The project was scrapped due to locals protesting it's development because it would block views of the mountains. Trump hasn't been back since. Again, we hurt our economy by trying to appease a group of NIMBY's. So with all due respect, your response makes little sense since we have routinely opposed development in key areas. Tempe is one of the only cities has not imposed ridiculous height requirements like Scottsdale and other cities. This would not happen in other cities. That W Hotel and Trump tower would have been up in no time. If this was Texas, they would enact more aggressive legislation to lure investors and white collar professionals ie (eliminate the state income tax) to spur development.
Phoenix was set to build a W hotel in downtown Phoenix. Robert Sarver was part of that investment team. The project was opposed due to the attempt to preserve a historic building. That opposition derailed that project and negatively impacted downtown Phoenix for years. The W would have brought other entertainment venues, hotels and restaurants. It was a major blow, all because of some ill conceived effort to preserve some dilapidated building. Furthermore, Donald Trump had plans to build a high rise in the Biltmore around the same time. The project was scrapped due to locals protesting it's development because it would block views of the mountains. Trump hasn't been back since. Again, we hurt our economy by trying to appease a group of NIMBY's. So with all due respect, your response makes little sense since we have routinely opposed development in key areas. Tempe is one of the only cities has not imposed ridiculous height requirements like Scottsdale and other cities. This would not happen in other cities. That W Hotel and Trump tower would have been up in no time. If this was Texas, they would enact more aggressive legislation to lure investors and white collar professionals ie (eliminate the state income tax) to spur development.
To your first point, building hotels and high-rises is not the same as economic development. Sure, it creates a short-term boost, but falls under the umbrella of a real estate-driven economy. We need high-paying jobs, not a real estate bubble.
A thriving Phoenix needs people living and working downtown. We have plenty of hotels downtown, so I'm not sure how much of a loss the W is.
Regarding historic buildings, some people think they're beautiful and full of character. They lend charm to a downtown. Honoring history creates rich layers of culture, makes a city interesting, and ultimately encourages people to set up shop there.
Yes, there have been some successful preservation efforts, but much of Phoenix's history has met the wrecking ball. Examples include:
1. Fox Theater
2. Old YMCA building
3. Federal Building
4. Fleming Building
Many buildings have been razed not for other development, but for surface parking lots. Two historic hotels were gutted by Sarver for this very purpose. How will Phoenix ever build culture if it keeps tearing down the past? How will it become walkable if pockmarked by parking lots?
Not every building should be saved, but a vibrant preservation movement countering the development efforts will move the pendulum closer to the middle. I believe it now lies too close to the development side.
Regarding height limits, I agree with you. We should build vertically. Density is good. Pockets of not-dense areas are good, too, keeping with Phoenix's agricultural heritage, but we have plenty of room in the urban corridor for infill and dense development, leaving the fringes suitably spacious for those so inclined to live there.
Let's take the discussion of Phoenix to another thread, please.
Posts deleted.
Perhaps you missed this post the first time. Will bold face type help?
This is NOT a thread about Phoenix. You can compare and contrast Phoenix and Tempe, but posts purely about Phoenix belong in another thread. There may be an existing thread where they fit, but you can start one if you like.
Last edited by observer53; 08-10-2014 at 06:26 AM..
Phoenix was set to build a W hotel in downtown Phoenix. Robert Sarver was part of that investment team. The project was opposed due to the attempt to preserve a historic building. That opposition derailed that project and negatively impacted downtown Phoenix for years. The W would have brought other entertainment venues, hotels and restaurants. It was a major blow, all because of some ill conceived effort to preserve some dilapidated building. Furthermore, Donald Trump had plans to build a high rise in the Biltmore around the same time. The project was scrapped due to locals protesting it's development because it would block views of the mountains. Trump hasn't been back since. Again, we hurt our economy by trying to appease a group of NIMBY's. So with all due respect, your response makes little sense since we have routinely opposed development in key areas. Tempe is one of the only cities has not imposed ridiculous height requirements like Scottsdale and other cities. This would not happen in other cities. That W Hotel and Trump tower would have been up in no time. If this was Texas, they would enact more aggressive legislation to lure investors and white collar professionals ie (eliminate the state income tax) to spur development.
I agree completely, and I have also posted my disgust many times about the proposed highrises that were suddenly scrapped largely due to these stupid NIMBYs. It's funny you mentioned that Tempe doesn't have the height restrictions like other Valley cities do because Tempe is so close to Sky Harbor. For years, people have made the claim that Phoenix's downtown can't grow taller because of Sky Harbor ... but Tempe has allowed two condo towers to be built right in the flight path of jet traffic. So the claim that Phoenix can't have a taller downtown because of Sky Harbor's flight path & FAA restrictions is just a lame excuse put forth by the pathetic NIMBYs as far as I'm concerned.
I agree completely, and I have also posted my disgust many times about the proposed highrises that were suddenly scrapped largely due to these stupid NIMBYs. It's funny you mentioned that Tempe doesn't have the height restrictions like other Valley cities do because Tempe is so close to Sky Harbor. For years, people have made the claim that Phoenix's downtown can't grow taller because of Sky Harbor ... but Tempe has allowed two condo towers to be built right in the flight path of jet traffic. So the claim that Phoenix can't have a taller downtown because of Sky Harbor's flight path & FAA restrictions is just a lame excuse put forth by the pathetic NIMBYs as far as I'm concerned.
On that note, here's a link to an interesting recent article about new flight path restrictions and potential effects on Tempe and Phoenix (which also suggests that the West 6th Project may be one of the reasons for the new rules)
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