School Quality in Phoenix Suburbs? (Gilbert, Sun City: renting, home, neighborhood)
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As a newcomer to AZ, and one who follows politics pretty closely, I think the issue with these budget override referendums is that there isn't nearly enough transparency on budgeting and information on what the extra money provides. People do not trust politicians these days and, like it or not, there is quite a bit of fear mongering that takes place when discussing school funding. I came from Illinois by way of Wisconsin, so I've seen it firsthand. When Wisconsin significantly reduced spending on public schools at the state level a few years ago there were howls of disapproval and "sky is falling" rhetoric. Four years later, they're still waiting for any impact to academic results. That tells you that there was a lot of waste and overhead in the system. Now, Arizona is different - there's not room for significant cuts. But voters still need to hear what the extra money the districts are requesting is going to get them. The mistake many make with school funding is that spending more always results in better performance. It doesn't. Most of the worst performing school districts spend more than well performing districts. The issue is what they spend money on. It's always going to be a cost/benefit issue for most people. If they knew the money was going to go to the classroom rather than just hiring more administrative staff they'd probably have a lot more success in getting these referendums passed.
Finally, you should not belittle retirees. It's difficult for you because in your mind, a retiree is an old geezer in Sun City who naps, plays golf and eats at buffets. You have to understand your image of a snowbird is so 1990's. Snowbirds and retirees have changed. Many are still working. Many are white collar professionals who work part-time. They are buying luxury property and cars, spending money at our finest restaurants, shop, get plastic surgery etc. It's not the same group of retirees that you grew up around. The elderly are living longer healthier lives due to medicine, education and lifestyle issues. You do not want to throw them aside. We want to embrace this population like Florida. They will spend money and help develop our economy. And this population especially wants to minimize their tax burden
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Originally Posted by Ponderosa
In the end, though, I don't believe it is so much the retirees as it is the apathy or laziness that dooms school votes and progress, in general, in Arizona. If younger people voted in the numbers that they represent in the population we would not have the legislature that we have or the Superintendent of Public Instruction that was elected. We really have no call to complain when primary turnout is 10% and general off-year elections attract less than 1/3 of the registered voters.
I agree with both of these points.
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Originally Posted by brian571
As a newcomer to AZ, and one who follows politics pretty closely, I think the issue with these budget override referendums is that there isn't nearly enough transparency on budgeting and information on what the extra money provides. People do not trust politicians these days and, like it or not, there is quite a bit of fear mongering that takes place when discussing school funding. I came from Illinois by way of Wisconsin, so I've seen it firsthand. When Wisconsin significantly reduced spending on public schools at the state level a few years ago there were howls of disapproval and "sky is falling" rhetoric. Four years later, they're still waiting for any impact to academic results. That tells you that there was a lot of waste and overhead in the system. Now, Arizona is different - there's not room for significant cuts. But voters still need to hear what the extra money the districts are requesting is going to get them. The mistake many make with school funding is that spending more always results in better performance. It doesn't. Most of the worst performing school districts spend more than well performing districts. The issue is what they spend money on. It's always going to be a cost/benefit issue for most people. If they knew the money was going to go to the classroom rather than just hiring more administrative staff they'd probably have a lot more success in getting these referendums passed.
My thinking falls along these lines and I think many people feel the same way. And I think a symptom of low voter turnout in the Phoenix metro to vote on such issues, or to vote them down, fall along the lines you mention. People who I know have told me this directly this is the case and to be honest, I lean towards this way of thinking these days. I don't trust what's being told to me in many cases and I don't take well to the "sky is falling" fear mongering that I feel is being put forth in selling some of these budgets and/or bonds. And if you lose the trust of people, why should we be surprised that people in the Phoenix area either don't vote on these things or vote no?
Another factor that you haven't mentioned, is how your kids do in school. We moved here from the east coast when my daughter was going into high school. For the most part she took AP classes and dual enrollments, so my concerns about her level of education were calmed knowing that there are much higher standards for those classes. I might be more concerned on a general or special education basis. I have a lot of contact with teachers and with parents. Class sizes are much higher here than in other areas of the country. Teachers have a very high rate of turnover. There isn't a high rate of experienced teachers in the buildings like there are in other areas of the country. If that's important to you, then you need to take that into consideration.
You also won't find the amount of Catholic schools here that you do there simply because the concentration of Catholics is lower here. My old town had 8 Catholic churches in a town of 40,000. Here, I think there are 2-3 (that I've found so far in 4 years, I suppose there could be more) in Gilbert with 230,000 people.
Another factor that you haven't mentioned, is how your kids do in school. We moved here from the east coast when my daughter was going into high school. For the most part she took AP classes and dual enrollments, so my concerns about her level of education were calmed knowing that there are much higher standards for those classes. I might be more concerned on a general or special education basis. I have a lot of contact with teachers and with parents. Class sizes are much higher here than in other areas of the country. Teachers have a very high rate of turnover. There isn't a high rate of experienced teachers in the buildings like there are in other areas of the country. If that's important to you, then you need to take that into consideration.
You also won't find the amount of Catholic schools here that you do there simply because the concentration of Catholics is lower here. My old town had 8 Catholic churches in a town of 40,000. Here, I think there are 2-3 (that I've found so far in 4 years, I suppose there could be more) in Gilbert with 230,000 people.
I'm not sure about that. It is not the case in the schools in Estrella, that is for sure. Almost every teacher that my kids had from 1st on up in elementary are still teaching at the same school they attended. The high school teachers have not changed much at all since the high school opened a few years ago either. There's good and bad in that, too.
As a newcomer to AZ, and one who follows politics pretty closely, I think the issue with these budget override referendums is that there isn't nearly enough transparency on budgeting and information on what the extra money provides. People do not trust politicians these days and, like it or not, there is quite a bit of fear mongering that takes place when discussing school funding. I came from Illinois by way of Wisconsin, so I've seen it firsthand. When Wisconsin significantly reduced spending on public schools at the state level a few years ago there were howls of disapproval and "sky is falling" rhetoric. Four years later, they're still waiting for any impact to academic results. That tells you that there was a lot of waste and overhead in the system. Now, Arizona is different - there's not room for significant cuts. But voters still need to hear what the extra money the districts are requesting is going to get them. The mistake many make with school funding is that spending more always results in better performance. It doesn't. Most of the worst performing school districts spend more than well performing districts. The issue is what they spend money on. It's always going to be a cost/benefit issue for most people. If they knew the money was going to go to the classroom rather than just hiring more administrative staff they'd probably have a lot more success in getting these referendums passed.
I agree with you about the "sky is falling" rhetoric and I agree that more funding does not automatically produce better quality education.
IMHO, what is most important is not how well the school district is funded but instead how the school district is supported (in many different ways) by the local community. Does the community value the public schools? Does the community have high expectations for its children? Does the community value the arts? A community that values those things produces children who will do well in college.
When evaluating a public school district, funding is an easy way to gauge that support. However, what is actually more important (again, IMHO) is how the school district is run. In the well established (and well funded, let's be honest) school districts, there is consistency in the curriculum choices for all ages. They don't switch curriculum willy nilly. For example, there has been marked differences in how the Common Core has been implemented by different districts. The well run districts used the Common Core to justify implementing higher standards for math and science. Some school districts have used it to justify getting rid of Everyday Math (classic fuzzy math curriculum) in favor of something more rigorous. However, other, less well run school districts used the Common Core to justify lowering standards or to justify their already low standards. For example, some school districts have used it to justify getting rid of 8th grade Algebra.
A community that values education with involved, educated parents and a population that is committed to the public schools is more likely to be a well run school district. I worry about a community with a sizable minority that has no connection to the schools and sees them as a burden.
As a newcomer to AZ, and one who follows politics pretty closely, I think the issue with these budget override referendums is that there isn't nearly enough transparency on budgeting and information on what the extra money provides. People do not trust politicians these days and, like it or not, there is quite a bit of fear mongering that takes place when discussing school funding. I came from Illinois by way of Wisconsin, so I've seen it firsthand. When Wisconsin significantly reduced spending on public schools at the state level a few years ago there were howls of disapproval and "sky is falling" rhetoric. Four years later, they're still waiting for any impact to academic results. That tells you that there was a lot of waste and overhead in the system. Now, Arizona is different - there's not room for significant cuts. But voters still need to hear what the extra money the districts are requesting is going to get them. The mistake many make with school funding is that spending more always results in better performance. It doesn't. Most of the worst performing school districts spend more than well performing districts. The issue is what they spend money on. It's always going to be a cost/benefit issue for most people. If they knew the money was going to go to the classroom rather than just hiring more administrative staff they'd probably have a lot more success in getting these referendums passed.
The voters can find out precisely what the bonds will get them. It is all available in detail from the school districts. Information is made available as well through mailings to district residents. And you know what? About half of the voters don't give damn what the needs are, they vote against the overrides because of their ideology which is a mix of anti-government sentiment and me-first selfishness.
I'm not sure about that. It is not the case in the schools in Estrella, that is for sure. Almost every teacher that my kids had from 1st on up in elementary are still teaching at the same school they attended. The high school teachers have not changed much at all since the high school opened a few years ago either. There's good and bad in that, too.
It likely depends where you live and what you're used to. Teachers from when I was a student 20 years ago are still teaching at the same schools they were when I went there. Schools that have been open a few years maintaining teachers aren't exactly where my thought process was when I made that comment. I was going for the point that often times, teachers who have been teaching 20 years have the experience to be paired with newer teachers who have just started their careers. That doesn't seem to be as commonplace here from my experience and from who I've spoken to. Keep in mind, the vast majority of my clients (which is who I talk to on a regular basis) do live in the East Valley or in Phoenix itself. I'm not in the West Valley very often so it very well could be a different experience there. At the same time, since many of the schools are new, I'd venture a guess that some of that still happens there too. There were 2 sides to that main point, just that the length of time teaching is much less here as so many don't stay with the profession, and the other being that many of the schools are so new that the length of time in a particular building would be less too.
I agree with you that it's not always a good thing that the certain people are teaching forever but having that continuity overall does tend to be a contributing factor to good schools.
The problem is Phoenix area retirees vote in groves to shut down school referendums. They figure they cannot afford to pay more and they don't have kids in school. Retirees sleep at night because they can blame wasteful and inefficient school spending. I've heard many Sun City retirees brag how little they pay in property taxes. Someone told me last week that their total is $300 a year. I pay $3K here and another $4K in MN. Sun City residence don't pay any school taxes.
Why should Sun City residents pay school taxes when there aren't any schools there? Sun City and Sun City West are strictly retirement communities. Also, how do you know it's just retirees who are the ones voting against school referendums? I'm not of retirement age, but I always vote down every tax increase or school bond issue simply because I want to keep taxes low. We spend more than our share on schools: 50% of the state budget, and nearly 70% of most property tax bills are allotted for public education. Enough already!
A good share of people (not just "geezers" as you called them) obviously feel much the same way. Look at the results from the last election: fiscally conservative Republicans were victorious in nearly every race, not just here, but across the nation. It wasn't because most voters liked the Republican party better, but they are fed up with all the liberals & their outrageous spending. Libs like to pull on heartstrings by crying that AZ is always near the bottom in education spending, but the majority of voters didn't buy it. DuVal (the education candidate) lost by a fairly large margin. I think that should send a message that most voters want to keep AZ on a fiscally conservative track, and don't want to keep spending/raising taxes on the monstrosity known as public education!
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Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
I don't have any kids in public schools either. I also have 2 homes so by definition, I pay double without having kids. But I am not b_tching. By some SS resident paying zero, we all pay more. Well I don't use social security or Medicare. Why not let the geezers who vote no simply because they don't care or dodge their obligation by living in SS get zero of my money to help their ability to sustain life. I could argue that since the medical system is broken and inefficient, I can ignore their needs for basic care because I already pay plenty. I could rationalize that they are spending to much for seniors who are going to die anyways. I say freeze Medicare forever so I can golf and eat out more. I could justify an eye for an eye: whatever happens to them doesn't bother me. I'll go to bed knowing I don't have any parents in the system (like they have no kids in K-12) so I don't have to pay. Does that sound rational???
Here's the difference: retirees PAID INTO Social Security & Medicare through their payroll taxes. The amount of Social Security a person receives at retirement is largely dependent on what their income was, and how much they contributed. Children pay nothing into the system and are getting a free ride on education. Personally, I would like to see SS & Medicare moved into more of a free enterprise type of system, and education privatized as well. That way, you won't have to worry about subsidizing old geezers, and I won't have to worry about subsidizing little rugrats. Does that sound rational???
Why should Sun City residents pay school taxes when there aren't any schools there? Sun City and Sun City West are strictly retirement communities. Also, how do you know it's just retirees who are the ones voting against school referendums? I'm not of retirement age, but I always vote down every tax increase or school bond issue simply because I want to keep taxes low. We spend more than our share on schools: 50% of the state budget, and nearly 70% of most property tax bills are allotted for public education. Enough already!
A good share of people (not just "geezers" as you called them) obviously feel much the same way. Look at the results from the last election: fiscally conservative Republicans were victorious in nearly every race, not just here, but across the nation. It wasn't because most voters liked the Republican party better, but they are fed up with all the liberals & their outrageous spending. Libs like to pull on heartstrings by crying that AZ is always near the bottom in education spending, but the majority of voters didn't buy it. DuVal (the education candidate) lost by a fairly large margin. I think that should send a message that most voters want to keep AZ on a fiscally conservative track, and don't want to keep spending/raising taxes on the monstrosity known as public education!
Here's the difference: retirees PAID INTO Social Security & Medicare through their payroll taxes. The amount of Social Security a person receives at retirement is largely dependent on what their income was, and how much they contributed. Children pay nothing into the system and are getting a free ride on education. Personally, I would like to see SS & Medicare moved into more of a free enterprise type of system, and education privatized as well. That way, you won't have to worry about subsidizing old geezers, and I won't have to worry about subsidizing little rugrats. Does that sound rational???
not the least bit actually. I leave it at that before this gets Uber political and once that happens there is never a "winner". I just think your insight is shortsighted.
Let's try to keep this thread focused on the OP's questions, not about retirees/school taxes/Sun City, etc. Further posts of that nature will be deleted.
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Does that sound rational???
