Is Phoenix too suburban? (Tucson, Scottsdale: new home, neighborhoods, buy)

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by ibarrio

My neighborhood is car dependent according to walk score (34). I don't know what goes into the score but I have 2 grocery stores (Fry's and Safeway), Walgreens, Sonic, McDonalds, Rosati's, Subway, Nicks 2 Diner, Native New Yorker, A Mexican Restaurant, Joey's of Chicago, A Movie Theater, A bowling Alley (Uptown Alley), 2 Starbucks, Freddy's, A Chinese Take-out, Leslie's pools, Chase Bank, Taco Bell, A Gym, O'Reilly Auto Parts, Tropical Smoothie Cafe, Bank of America, Papa Johns, Sugar and Spice (Bakery), Rocket Fizz, Cold Stone, Surprise Animal Hospital, and a few other businesses I left out. I would say Freddy's is the furthest from me and it is .6 miles away from my house. But my score is car dependent. Go figure...

i think that's the illusion that those who espouse "walkability" have fallen for. Just because a strip mall doesn't "look" like an old-fashioned "downtown", people assume a neighborhood isn't "walkable". I could prolly name a hundred businesses within a mile or two miles of my house (including schools, parks, groceries etc) & I could park my Chevy indefinitely if I had a mind to do so. It's rare to see my neighbors walking around with grocery bags, but at 6 am and 8 pm in the hot season the sidewalk in front of my home is as busy as any downtown sidewalk (with people walking their dogs). It's a different shade of "urban".

[BIG CATS]

In all honesty, Phoenix isnt very walkable, unless youre right downtown. There are areas of Phoenix outside of downtown that are walkable, but theyre strikingly similar to anything you can find in most suburbs. For instance, Im in Scottsdale and I walk everywhere for the most part. I walk to Walgreens, our church, grocery store (if only for small items), gas station, bank, guitar store, etc. Im very blessed in that aspect. But someone coming here from NYC or CHI or PHI might find PHX not very walkable. Just my two cents...

[43north87west]

The thing is, Phoenix is 500 square miles. By eastern standards, most of Phoenix is actually a suburb of itself. That doesn't even include the actual suburbs. It's already walkable, but the "walkability" is greatly diluted by the fact that it's so huge. Do you want to live in a walkable neighborhood, or do you want to live on horse property? You can do both, all in the city limits.

If only the most densely populated continuous areas of the valley were chunked out (probably from Phoenix Midtown, Biltmore area, and over to Tempe and Old Town Scottsdale) it would be a city of very "walkable" areas, and would probably represent about the same square mileage as cities like Seattle and Boston. But as it is today, the walkable image is greatly diminished by the huge size. The image isn't helped by people who obviously haven't been there since 1995, but talk about it with current day authority.

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by bgibs

Would you say that Phoenix is in the same vein as Vegas? Vegas is pretty suburban outside the Strip. Vegas and Phoenix are both desert cities. Vegas doesn't get picked apart for suburban sprawl like Phoenix, Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston do on City-Data. I understand not every city on the West Coast is going to have the urbanity of SF or LA. It just seems that Phoenix and Vegas are the two least urban major cities in the West Coast even more so than Denver, Sacramento, and San Diego. Phoenix has good growth like most Sunbelt cities but I never hear of anyone having a desire to move to Phoenix like they would Atlanta. Most people move to Phoenix for jobs. Phoenix is Arizona's largest city but I feel Scottsdale gets more praise and shine.

I am from Vegas originally. I would actually argue that Vegas is more walkable than Phoenix. Vegas doesn't get picked apart as much because most people don't know Vegas outside of the Strip. Vegas is also a relatively small metro area compared to the cities you mentioned. It's a more compact sprawl. Homes within subdivisions there tend to be closer together. Unlike Phoenix, you don't have large plots of agricultural land that separate developments. It's more just continuous, low density development.

[HTY483]

Originally Posted by new2colo

Homes within subdivisions there tend to be closer together. Unlike Phoenix, you don't have large plots of agricultural land that separate developments. It's more just continuous, low density development.

Really????? I don't think its physically possible to get the homes more jammed together then the acres and acres of tract homes around the Valley. I grew up in Sunnyslope which has older homes that are not so close to each other but for the most part homes around the Valley could not get packed in any more than they are without violating city codes.

[asufan]

Originally Posted by new2colo

I am from Vegas originally. I would actually argue that Vegas is more walkable than Phoenix. Vegas doesn't get picked apart as much because most people don't know Vegas outside of the Strip. Vegas is also a relatively small metro area compared to the cities you mentioned. It's a more compact sprawl. Homes within subdivisions there tend to be closer together. Unlike Phoenix, you don't have large plots of agricultural land that separate developments. It's more just continuous, low density development.

I agree Vegas development is much like recent development in Orange County, CA where I am from. Mostly 2-story houses on tiny 4500-5500 SF lots, whereas here most new developments the lot sizes are typically more like 7500-8000 SF except for the cluster developments.

[mcmlxv]

To answer the original question, Phoenix is not too suburban. It's, with a few exceptions, completely suburban, but in a unique manner.

Understand that the layout of the Valley is a rigid grid divided into a quilt of one-mile blocks. Distances tend to feel the same whether you're travelling close to the central city or outside of it in the newer regions. This lends to a sense of order that is, depending on your point of view, both calming and predictable or monotonous. Despite the sprawl, Phoenix has a fairly high density that is mostly uniform and is more walkable than many people realize. Residents are able to walk or bike out of their subdivisions to shopping at the big 4 way intersections and strip centers. That's why you'll see people carrying bags along the main roads whether it's the postwar "suburbs" in the Northern, Northeastern, and Western neighborhoods as well as the older strips from Camelback down to Downtown and out into the East side. Sure, there's far more pedestrian traffic in the older areas because there are many more commercial buildings and apartments and condos, but the newer areas are far from ghost towns.

Ultimately, Phoenix is the ultimate car city: it moves millions of people safely, quickly, and efficiently every day like no other city. I wish people would try to appreciate that. Yes, there's always more room for more public transportation, and bike and HOV lanes. But Phoenix is not Manhattan, Chicago, or even Los Angeles. Embrace this city for what it is! It's a great place.

[Java Jolt]

No Phoenix isn't too suburban, it's just too darn big.

[cherrylimeade]

Originally Posted by Arizona Mike

One of the results of a city being "walkable" is that driving is by corollary, hellish. Streets are congested, drivers honk at each other as frequently as they exhale and view driving as a zero-sum game where of you are going where you want to go, it must be at the other driver's expense, so they speed up to avoid you cutting in. Parking is hard to find, almost always parallel (twice drivers trying to fit their cars in to a too-small place rammed their bumpers right into my subcompact rental, scratching the paint), and governed by an arcane code of residential permits, short time limits, expensive meters that require you to download an app to pay for parking, expensive valet parking, and underground garages that cost a fortune.

The basic necessities of life are also downsized, so grocery stores in the downtown areas are hard to find, offer small selections, have limited selections of healthy or fresh foods, have shorter hours, and are more expensive as they lack an economy of scale.

This is such a good point.

I spent the last couple decades in fairly walkable Minneapolis. The last three years, I lived a couple blocks from two supermarkets and a drugstore, among other things. How many times did I walk to any of those places? Maybe three. Meanwhile, as a driver I was constantly dealing with narrow, congested streets.

We moved here this month and are amazed by the vast, relatively uncrowded roads. Everything we need is a short drive away (I could walk to some restaurants a mile away, but in 115 degree heat and some slightly dubious neighborhoods near our temporary housing, I'd rather drive). "It's not walkable" was one of my early concerns about Phoenix, but I'm over that.

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by bgibs

One of the most common complaints I hear about Phoenix is that a majority of the city is suburban sprawl.

Not sure who's complaining because the vast majority are driving the demand by their decisions to purchase homes that are creating the "sprawl". People don't buy in a certain area, houses don't get built in a certain area.