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Nope just the opportunity to mooch off the other residents in real cities throughout Maricopa County.
Yeah right. They paid cash for their homes, and they live amongst the wealthiest people in the valley, enjoying life every day. Keep dreaming while you fight your way to work in traffic, so you can make another mortgage payment. If you don't get your financed car repossessed.
I don't think we have to bust on retirees or wanting to bring in more professional younger people into the valley. I think it's a a good thing to have as many age groups as we can in the valley as it helps diversity our economy....young professional, retirees, snowbirds, tourists, etc. They all bring money/pay taxes in our state in some form. Retirees/snow birds alone put a ton of money into our economy and they aren't the demographic committing crimes that younger people usually commit so there are some big positives right there. And if our economy goes sour, and companies start laying off people, retirees/snowbirds provide a stable base of spending.
It also might surprise some that Phoenix actually has a population that skews younger than the rest of the nation.
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
I don't think we have to bust on retirees or wanting to bring in more professional younger people into the valley. I think it's a a good thing to have as many age groups as we can in the valley as it helps diversity our economy....young professional, retirees, snowbirds, tourists, etc. They all bring money/pay taxes in our state in some form. Retirees/snow birds alone put a ton of money into our economy and they aren't the demographic committing crimes that younger people usually commit so there are some big positives right there. And if our economy goes sour, and companies start laying off people, retirees/snowbirds provide a stable base of spending.
It also might surprise some that Phoenix actually has a population that skews younger than the rest of the nation.
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
I'll agree that there's nothing wrong with retirees or snowbirds contributing to the economy, which they do in a large way. In fact, I'm glad we have entire communities like the Sun Cities which are dedicated to older people who prefer living among people within their age group & no longer care to be in neighborhoods with lots of kids or young families. I tend to be that way myself, and might even decide to live in a retirement area once I reach retirement age.
The thing is, however, Phoenix being one of the larger metro areas in the nation can no longer sustain its economy on things like seasonal tourism (snowbirds), sunshine, and cheap housing. Those things might have worked 30 or 40 years ago, but not anymore. Phoenix needs to bring in more talented, skilled, educated professional types who contribute to a thriving economy, and help make it a world class metro area. We will never be world class if we mostly focus on retirees, snowbirds, and the weather. Besides, what's so great about the weather? It's blazing hot for at least four straight months, and the lack of precipitation has contributed to the current drought situation. I'm a native, and I continue to reside here for much more important reasons besides the climate.
I forgot a rather important one, at least it is for me. The water sucks big time!!!!!! It's mostly due to the long residence time in the pipes which tends to give it that rotten egg smell. Water is just about all I drink and it's absolutely horrible here. Kansas City water was borderline delicious. Denver water was decent. Phoenix drinking water sucks and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for bottled water.
If you think the water is bad now be glad you didn't live in Phoenix in the 50s and prior! The water tasted like salty bleach! Ice cubes tasted like salt cubes. Consequently a lot of us grew up on Culligan water and store bought ice. I don't get to Phoenix very often anymore but I don't recall having a problem with the drinking water as much as I used to.
(Sorry about the smallish text - I'm having formatting problems)
What I hate about the Valley? Hmmm. Hate's a strong word, but let me see:
* Me, a native kid, who loves the Papago Park and South Mountain trails, trips to Sedona and Prescott and San Xavier and the Grand Canyon, and loves nothing more than a fine view of Four Peaks and Camelback Mountain, never realized how claustrophobic the valley cities were until I moved away six months ago. There has been no effort to retain open space with native flora and fauna at all (no,vacant lots of bulldozed whatever don’t count). I never realized it until I moved to the Austin area, where it’s mandatory that space be set aside for preservation in every housing development, and trees and other greenery of a certain size/age are to be preserved in areas being built on for commercial purposes. It’s too late for the Valley – it’s almost full to the gills. It’s too bad – the Sonoran desert is really beautiful, and it’s ruined within the confines of the Valley. Sad lack of foresight.
* Row upon row, acre upon acre, miles and miles of identical cookie cutter houses that are so close together that, if one of them catches fire, they’ll all go. Gone is the neighborhood concept of houses having character, let alone elbow room. Thanks, greedy developers.
*As mentioned upthread, a complete disregard of history. Everything above a certain age is disposable, and is bulldozed. How can a city (and most are guilty of this practice) have culture and characterand an identity if all there is for reference are cruddy looking buildings withoutany soul?
* The “art” along the freeways that the state/the relevant city paid thousands of dollars for, that a preschooler could do, and that nobody notices as they sit in traffic. What a waste.
* The traffic. The freeway system is chronically 20-30 years behind and counting. Case in point, the South Mountain bypass: it should have happened twenty years ago – it was touted as The Solution to downtown traffic – and it was never pushed through for a thousand reasons. They allowed builders to develop there, so now you’ve got a big NIMBY problem despite the sun-faded “Future Site Of” signs on the roads down there. The tribe is right to say “nope, not on our land, go figure out a solution.” ADOT is staffed by idiots and badly underfunded by the state. Good luck on that one.
* On a related note, the loop freeways. Seriously, WTH. Lay off the crack. No, they’re not confusing, not at all.
* The light rail – what a freakin’ joke. All it’s doing is destroying business corridors. Professional offices (CPAs, lawyers,etc) are fleeing Central Phoenix because clients can’t get into their buildings; solid blue-collar businesses have shuttered along Washington and Jefferson because you can’t make a left hand turn anywhere. Why they ran it along the dying corridor of Main in Mesa, I haven’t a clue. This is not to say that I’m not a fan of the idea and of correct implementation of mass transit –but this has been a cluster from day one. It’s a mess. Scottsdale is right to say not only No, but Hell No to an artery running up Scottsdale Road. The only area where I think it’s useful is around ASU, but that’s about it.
* The new brand of Arizona politician that has no real connection to the state. I hate this so much. The last gubernatorial racewas a good example: two corporate animals, after money and power, and not really personally connected to the state at all. Say what you will about Jan Brewer, but at least she’d served the state for decades before becoming governor. Rose Mofford, the same. Even scuzzy old Ev Mecham and the hapless Fife Symington had connections to the state. (I don’t include Napolitano because she abandoned Arizona once she left the State Department). The days of people running for office because they, and perhaps generations of their families, were involved and invested in the state and truly wanted what was best for Arizona and Arizonans – are gone. Very sad.
*The ridiculous housing market. We spent three years house hunting in a specific area, which was abandoned after an out-of-state job offer. The house we’re building here could only MAYBE be done somewhere like Florence, or Wickenburg, but astronomical within what is commonly called the Valley (doesn't matter which side of Central), and would be unobtainable for us in California (just for perspective). It’s stupidly inflated if you’re looking in nicer neighborhoods with good school districts.
* I don’t really *hate* the airport, but it’s such a pain in the arse, the way it’s designed… and my God, the traffic control. Plus, just make it one terminal already.
* Like others have said, I hate how others comehere and complain. You don’t like it? Leave.
* And, lastly, I never realized how miserable the overall attitude of people are here until I moved elsewhere. Is it the heat? The crappy job market? The transitory nature of its inhabitants? I don’t know. But it’s here and it’s palpable.
I left the Valley because I was ready to go and explore new horizons, but it’s also because I hate how Phoenix is now ‘Little L.A.’ (see that thread for further commentary). It just isn’t home anymore. My hometown kowtows to the University and to riverfront development, and so has ruined the nice balance that city had of various ages and backgrounds, with super neighborhoods and good schools; anything outside of those two things are now starting to decay from neglect. I can’t stand watching it die.
I’ll find out if Ireally miss Phoenix when I come back for Christmas.
* The traffic. The freeway system is chronically 20-30 years behind and counting. Case in point, the South Mountain bypass: it should have happened twenty years ago – it was touted as The Solution to downtown traffic – and it was never pushed through for a thousand reasons. They allowed builders to develop there, so now you’ve got a big NIMBY problem despite the sun-faded “Future Site Of” signs on the roads down there. The tribe is right to say “nope, not on our land, go figure out a solution.” ADOT is staffed by idiots and badly underfunded by the state. Good luck on that one.
* On a related note, the loop freeways. Seriously, WTH. Lay off the crack. No, they’re not confusing, not at all.
I have to disagree with you here...the freeway system is actually quite good compared with a lot of other cities of similar size. The roads are in relatively good shape and the coverage is reasonable. You're right that the South Mountain freeway should have been built decades ago, but aside from a crosstown freeway that connects the 101 and the 51 along Northern or somewhere around there, it really isn't missing much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving Arizona
* [font=Calibri]The light rail – what a freakin’ joke. All it’s doing is destroying business corridors. Professional offices (CPAs, lawyers,etc) are fleeing Central Phoenix because clients can’t get into their buildings; solid blue-collar businesses have shuttered along Washington and Jefferson because you can’t make a left hand turn anywhere.
I really don't think light rail has hurt businesses along those lines. I'm not going to go hunting for citations here but at worst it's neutral and it has likely helped many businesses. And Central Phoenix is not experiencing an exodus of businesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving Arizona
* I don’t really *hate* the airport, but it’s such a pain in the arse, the way it’s designed… and my God, the traffic control. Plus, just make it one terminal already.
I don't get this one either. Sky Harbor is one of the easiest airports to deal with out of any I've been to. I live 20 minutes from the airport and I fly for work regularly...I head to the airport an hour and 15 minutes before my flight and I never have a problem getting to the gate well before boarding. Plus, I can get to my car and be home 40 minutes after the wheels touch down without fail. It isn't that simple at almost any other major airport.
I agree about the airport, at least driving there. The signs are so confusing as to which lane you are supposed to be in. I've missed my exit more than once and had to loop around the entire place. It's frustrating. There is at least one place where a sign tells you to be in the far left lane at one point, then when it is time to exit, you are supposed to be in the far right. I think whoever designed that part of the airport was drunk!
As for inside, yes, it is very well designed. No issues there.
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My posts as moderator will be in red.
(Sorry about the smallish text - I'm having formatting problems)
What I hate about the Valley? Hmmm. Hate's a strong word, but let me see:
* Me, a native kid, who loves the Papago Park and South Mountain trails, trips to Sedona and Prescott and San Xavier and the Grand Canyon, and loves nothing more than a fine view of Four Peaks and Camelback Mountain, never realized how claustrophobic the valley cities were until I moved away six months ago. There has been no effort to retain open space with native flora and fauna at all (no,vacant lots of bulldozed whatever don’t count). I never realized it until I moved to the Austin area, where it’s mandatory that space be set aside for preservation in every housing development, and trees and other greenery of a certain size/age are to be preserved in areas being built on for commercial purposes. It’s too late for the Valley – it’s almost full to the gills. It’s too bad – the Sonoran desert is really beautiful, and it’s ruined within the confines of the Valley. Sad lack of foresight.
* Row upon row, acre upon acre, miles and miles of identical cookie cutter houses that are so close together that, if one of them catches fire, they’ll all go. Gone is the neighborhood concept of houses having character, let alone elbow room. Thanks, greedy developers.
*As mentioned upthread, a complete disregard of history. Everything above a certain age is disposable, and is bulldozed. How can a city (and most are guilty of this practice) have culture and characterand an identity if all there is for reference are cruddy looking buildings withoutany soul?
* The “art” along the freeways that the state/the relevant city paid thousands of dollars for, that a preschooler could do, and that nobody notices as they sit in traffic. What a waste.
* The traffic. The freeway system is chronically 20-30 years behind and counting. Case in point, the South Mountain bypass: it should have happened twenty years ago – it was touted as The Solution to downtown traffic – and it was never pushed through for a thousand reasons. They allowed builders to develop there, so now you’ve got a big NIMBY problem despite the sun-faded “Future Site Of” signs on the roads down there. The tribe is right to say “nope, not on our land, go figure out a solution.” ADOT is staffed by idiots and badly underfunded by the state. Good luck on that one.
* On a related note, the loop freeways. Seriously, WTH. Lay off the crack. No, they’re not confusing, not at all.
* The light rail – what a freakin’ joke. All it’s doing is destroying business corridors. Professional offices (CPAs, lawyers,etc) are fleeing Central Phoenix because clients can’t get into their buildings; solid blue-collar businesses have shuttered along Washington and Jefferson because you can’t make a left hand turn anywhere. Why they ran it along the dying corridor of Main in Mesa, I haven’t a clue. This is not to say that I’m not a fan of the idea and of correct implementation of mass transit –but this has been a cluster from day one. It’s a mess. Scottsdale is right to say not only No, but Hell No to an artery running up Scottsdale Road. The only area where I think it’s useful is around ASU, but that’s about it.
* The new brand of Arizona politician that has no real connection to the state. I hate this so much. The last gubernatorial racewas a good example: two corporate animals, after money and power, and not really personally connected to the state at all. Say what you will about Jan Brewer, but at least she’d served the state for decades before becoming governor. Rose Mofford, the same. Even scuzzy old Ev Mecham and the hapless Fife Symington had connections to the state. (I don’t include Napolitano because she abandoned Arizona once she left the State Department). The days of people running for office because they, and perhaps generations of their families, were involved and invested in the state and truly wanted what was best for Arizona and Arizonans – are gone. Very sad.
*The ridiculous housing market. We spent three years house hunting in a specific area, which was abandoned after an out-of-state job offer. The house we’re building here could only MAYBE be done somewhere like Florence, or Wickenburg, but astronomical within what is commonly called the Valley (doesn't matter which side of Central), and would be unobtainable for us in California (just for perspective). It’s stupidly inflated if you’re looking in nicer neighborhoods with good school districts.
* I don’t really *hate* the airport, but it’s such a pain in the arse, the way it’s designed… and my God, the traffic control. Plus, just make it one terminal already.
* Like others have said, I hate how others comehere and complain. You don’t like it? Leave.
* And, lastly, I never realized how miserable the overall attitude of people are here until I moved elsewhere. Is it the heat? The crappy job market? The transitory nature of its inhabitants? I don’t know. But it’s here and it’s palpable.
I left the Valley because I was ready to go and explore new horizons, but it’s also because I hate how Phoenix is now ‘Little L.A.’ (see that thread for further commentary). It just isn’t home anymore. My hometown kowtows to the University and to riverfront development, and so has ruined the nice balance that city had of various ages and backgrounds, with super neighborhoods and good schools; anything outside of those two things are now starting to decay from neglect. I can’t stand watching it die.
I’ll find out if Ireally miss Phoenix when I come back for Christmas.
you haven't spent much time in Denver..
Phoenix is a breeze compared w/Denver, except Denver doesn't have rows of homes and rows of identical homes is not a bad thing.
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