Woaahhh, culture shocked, Phoenix is much larger than i thought (Tucson: light rail, vacation)

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

You just lost all credibility. Seriously.


Did you know Chicago has the most architecturally diverse skyline in the ENTIRE WORLD?!? Its hailed globally for being an architectural destination. Heck, there are architectural bus tours and even riverboat cruises to showcase the intense architecture. You're insane, man. You should really do some research.


Back on topic.... again... We can whine and cry all we want about PHX's skyline, but its never gonna be world class. It just wont. We're sprawling OUT, not UP. And when we do go UP, its usually smaller buildings with faceless designs that are booooooooooooring. The only things that truly stand out in the Valley are Arcosanti and Taliesen West, ironically. Most buildings here (post 1980) are just BLAH. You have some gems downtown like the Sheraton, Westward Ho, and the San Carlos, but everything else is so, well, lame.

We are building up in downtown and midtown, all the cranes contradict your statement

[joee5]

I visited there many years ago and though beautiful, it was 113 degrees

[Colt AZ]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

We're sprawling OUT, not UP. And when we do go UP, its usually smaller buildings with faceless designs that are booooooooooooring. The only things that truly stand out in the Valley are Arcosanti and Taliesen West, ironically. Most buildings here (post 1980) are just BLAH. You have some gems downtown like the Sheraton, Westward Ho, and the San Carlos, but everything else is so, well, lame.

It's okay, Cats.

We basically accept, if not totally love urban sprawl & mountain to mountain annexation. We seriously don't need 50 to 100-story buildings in Arizona. Others are more than welcome to their world-class stuff. It's cool. It's who they are. We can visit and ooh & aah when we're there. We're happy here in our great and wonderful territory. We have waaay too much land here.

NYC needs to build up - they're an island. Chicago is pretty much land & lake-locked as well. Et al, etc, etc.

Dude, we're happy here in our beautifully boring & sprawling environment!

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

We are building up in downtown and midtown, all the cranes contradict your statement

I said when PHX grows upward its usually bland, smaller buildings. Nothing that stands out architecturally nor anything significant. And PHX sprawls outward much faster than it does upwards. There is probably 50,000 homes built in the burbs to every one downtown.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

You just lost all credibility. Seriously.


Did you know Chicago has the most architecturally diverse skyline in the ENTIRE WORLD?!? Its hailed globally for being an architectural destination. Heck, there are architectural bus tours and even riverboat cruises to showcase the intense architecture. You're insane, man. You should really do some research.


Back on topic.... again... We can whine and cry all we want about PHX's skyline, but its never gonna be world class. It just wont. We're sprawling OUT, not UP. And when we do go UP, its usually smaller buildings with faceless designs that are booooooooooooring. The only things that truly stand out in the Valley are Arcosanti and Taliesen West, ironically. Most buildings here (post 1980) are just BLAH. You have some gems downtown like the Sheraton, Westward Ho, and the San Carlos, but everything else is so, well, lame.

Oh no, I offended another person with an east coast bias that thinks everything here is BLAH... Whatever will I do.

Speaking of blah you missed quite a few architectural gems in your own backyard including but not limited to the Luhrs tower, the County security building, Dunbar Elementary, Heard building, the Rossen house, 2 well known castles, Wrigley Mansion, the Biltmore, the Wright house.

Like I said, most people overlook a lot about Phoenix and your commentary proves you're doing that as well.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

That's not density. Well, not like it should be (considering our size).

THIS is density.
http://monkeywrenchplumbers.com/wp-c.../IMG_44852.jpg

Phoenix downtown isn't dense compared to Chicago? Holy cow you have opened my eyes!


Somebody get this guy a book deal he is breaking new barriers with his observations.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

Yeah, Hong Kong's skyline is the most dense on Earth. Nothing can really compare (except Tokyo). Too bad its generic beyond generic.


PHX I never considered dense, and most likely never will. Even the neighborhoods around downtown (which are typically the most densely packed) are hardly what I call "dense". It looks like mainstream suburbia to me. For those coming from Billings, it might seem really dense, but for those of us from areas with dense and large city cores, PHX looks like an overgrown suburb. Its going to get better in the future, but we'll most likely never be truly dense like Eastern cities.

Phoenix is following the same growth pattern as LA, if you look at LA in the 50's or 60's Phoenix looks quite similar.


I would expect in 50 years (assuming growth stays high) we can expect to see densities similar to LA (same kind of history, same kind of environment and development patterns) however there are some differences going forward that LA and Phoenix both dealt with that are changing.


1. Social attitudes and market forces are preferring more density and less sprawl, for whatever reason this trend is the reversal of traditional attitudes over the last 50-60 years. This is good for Phoenix because it means we can hope to have a denser core than LA had sooner.


2. transportation is going through a major paradigm shift both in attitude of consumers and tech. Western cities were all built on the idea of independent personal autos. This is changing, the main from of transportation in the future could be a combination of ride sharing and self driving cars. Phoenix and Arizona have begun to have major investments in transportation infrastructure, the light rail is a relative success and is expanding, the state has begun planning for heavy inter-city rail and if the federal government/elon musk built their high speed transportation over the next 20-30 years the way people and goods get around will change dramatically. The need for sprawl and highways and parking lots may shrink considerably over the coming decades.


I see you seem to fall into a few odd traps. For one you feel the need to compare cities with centuries of history and development to phoenix which was little more than a collection of farm towns 30 years ago. and two you think bigger means better. I think new York, while cool, is a disgusting place. Chicago I find nice and Hong Kong I found in-hospitable. You seem to give no value to the environment of the place, a big part of Phoenix and the local culture is being close to nature. that attitude does not lend itself to heavy dense development in general. It is also home to many millions of east coast expats who wanted SPACE they don't want to be in Brooklyn. If they did, they wouldn't have moved.


there is a lot more to a city and why one would like it or live there than "it looks good in pictures" Phoenix is my home, that's an unquantifiable factor for me. Its in a culture vastly different in most respects than the dense cities of the east coast. If wide open spaces sunny weather and a lazie fair attitude isn't your thing, you aren't going to like it.

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by locolife

Oh no, I offended another person with an east coast bias that thinks everything here is BLAH... Whatever will I do.

Speaking of blah you missed quite a few architectural gems in your own backyard including but not limited to the Luhrs tower, the County security building, Dunbar Elementary, Heard building, the Rossen house, 2 well known castles, Wrigley Mansion, the Biltmore, the Wright house.

Like I said, most people overlook a lot about Phoenix and your commentary proves you're doing that as well.

I have no east coast bias (outside of architectural preferences), otherwise I would've never considered PHX as a place to relocate to. Think, McFly, think!


Your examples of outstanding architecture are nice ones, but they're few and far between, and from a bygone era. You're just reinforcing my statement that anything post-1980 here in the Valley is...yawn.


I don't overlook Phoenix. Hell, Im always over on the city-vs-city forum here on City-Data constantly defending Phoenix.

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Phoenix downtown isn't dense compared to Chicago? Holy cow you have opened my eyes!


Somebody get this guy a book deal he is breaking new barriers with his observations.

Get me a book deal? Sounds good! I shall title my first publication "Phoenix: The Fascination From Locals About The City's Supposed Hardcore Density".


PHX isn't dense, and to say so is laughable. Time to be real, folks.

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Phoenix is following the same growth pattern as LA, if you look at LA in the 50's or 60's Phoenix looks quite similar.


I would expect in 50 years (assuming growth stays high) we can expect to see densities similar to LA (same kind of history, same kind of environment and development patterns) however there are some differences going forward that LA and Phoenix both dealt with that are changing.


1. Social attitudes and market forces are preferring more density and less sprawl, for whatever reason this trend is the reversal of traditional attitudes over the last 50-60 years. This is good for Phoenix because it means we can hope to have a denser core than LA had sooner.


2. transportation is going through a major paradigm shift both in attitude of consumers and tech. Western cities were all built on the idea of independent personal autos. This is changing, the main from of transportation in the future could be a combination of ride sharing and self driving cars. Phoenix and Arizona have begun to have major investments in transportation infrastructure, the light rail is a relative success and is expanding, the state has begun planning for heavy inter-city rail and if the federal government/elon musk built their high speed transportation over the next 20-30 years the way people and goods get around will change dramatically. The need for sprawl and highways and parking lots may shrink considerably over the coming decades.


I see you seem to fall into a few odd traps. For one you feel the need to compare cities with centuries of history and development to phoenix which was little more than a collection of farm towns 30 years ago. and two you think bigger means better. I think new York, while cool, is a disgusting place. Chicago I find nice and Hong Kong I found in-hospitable. You seem to give no value to the environment of the place, a big part of Phoenix and the local culture is being close to nature. that attitude does not lend itself to heavy dense development in general. It is also home to many millions of east coast expats who wanted SPACE they don't want to be in Brooklyn. If they did, they wouldn't have moved.


there is a lot more to a city and why one would like it or live there than "it looks good in pictures" Phoenix is my home, that's an unquantifiable factor for me. Its in a culture vastly different in most respects than the dense cities of the east coast. If wide open spaces sunny weather and a lazie fair attitude isn't your thing, you aren't going to like it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but you're basing your assault on me based simply on a photo I shared. We all moved to Phoenix because we saw something that captivated us. For me it was the desert. I fell in love with the desert when we first vacationed here almost 15 years ago now. I didn't plan on moving here initially, so we visited every year for almost a decade. I know what I was getting into moving here. Im sure the vast majority of those living here did the same.


Another HUGE factor of my moving here was how I loved being so close to nature. I can be in the Phoenix Mountains in mere minutes. To the McDowells in 15. That was a HUGE draw for me. And all these years later I still hike them at least twice a month, even in summer. I know just how vastly different PHX is from NYC, and I wouldn't ever compare the two unless someone from PHX is trying to put itself on the same playing field as NYC. At that point they need a verbal slapdown and a massive reality check. That's what I was doing with my photo. PHX isn't dense. It just isn't. Its growing, and in many ways in the right direction, but calling PHX dense is where we have to correct people. Anyone from a larger, older, more established city would NEVER call this place dense. To those of us who relocated from said larger cities, Phoenix is less dense than most of the suburbs we came from.