Is the Valley of the Sun (Phoenix metro) considered Urban or Suburban? (Glendale: apartment, houses)

[Mezter]

Overall, Suburban. That doesn't mean that there aren't urban parts or that it's not a city.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

I agree except there are some large desert areas in Phoenix and not just on the fringes.

They're mostly in the form of preserved parklands like South Mountain and North Mountain but regardless, they still seem rural and uncitylike.

And don't forget the massive Indian Reservation land in and around Phoenix. It's pretty obvious where the salt river and gila river reservations start.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

The only part of Atlanta that seems dense is the central core. Admittedly, they have a much taller, denser downtown with plenty of national/global company HQs which Phoenix still lacks. Outside of downtown, a good part of Atlanta and the suburbs seem almost rural in nature. Much of Phoenix still has that urban/suburban feel (except for the far northern end of the city limits), and most of the suburbs look & feel the same way. The drop off from urban to suburban to rural is much more gradual in the Phoenix area, whereas the drop off in the Atlanta area seems much more sudden. The Atlanta metro does have some notable highrise centers (Dunwoody, Sandy Springs) despite the more rural atmosphere.

Yeah that's a perfect explanation and when you talk about downtown Phoenix getting more built up I think a level on par with Atlanta would be cool, stretching up Central from Van Buren to Camelback. But then I also see the nightmare traffic congestion they have in Atlanta and I'm not really sure it's worth all that. I do like how the core looks though.

[dvxhd]

Originally Posted by locolife

The downtown cores make up an extremely small part of both urban areas and a tiny part of the population. You can go off on whatever irrelevant points you want, it doesn't change the fact that most people in Phoenix live in a denser area than Atlanta. Period.

They're not irrelevant, they're addressing points you chose to bring up because you took something as an insult that wasn't intended to be. Atlanta is adding more to its skyline, whereas Phoenix is just building up smaller buildings. If I can dig it up, I read an interesting article on that very topic (though specific to Phoenix, no mention of Atlanta). Among other things, it brought up a particular challenge Phoenix has in that steel-framed apartments/condos are harder to build here mostly because of the market value and that to recover construction costs, developers would have to charge more than most people here make. Steel-framed residences do go up in other cities where people have the income to make them work, or these buildings have been in place for some time.

Atlanta aside, while I have no doubt you voted for "urban", the consensus of the poll is pretty clear in that people feel Phoenix is just a big suburb.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by dvxhd

They're not irrelevant, they're addressing points you chose to bring up because you took something as an insult that wasn't intended to be. Atlanta is adding more to its skyline, whereas Phoenix is just building up smaller buildings. If I can dig it up, I read an interesting article on that very topic (though specific to Phoenix, no mention of Atlanta). Among other things, it brought up a particular challenge Phoenix has in that steel-framed apartments/condos are harder to build here mostly because of the market value and that to recover construction costs, developers would have to charge more than most people here make. Steel-framed residences do go up in other cities where people have the income to make them work, or these buildings have been in place for some time.

Atlanta aside, while I have no doubt you voted for "urban", the consensus of the poll is pretty clear in that people feel Phoenix is just a big suburb.

You keep focusing on the core, which I already said is denser in Atlanta. We don't disagree, both cores make up very small parts of both cities and my point is Phoenix on average is much denser.

Your point about construction material doesn't make much sense to me, there are no less than 6 cranes up in Tempe right now and they all are building with concrete and steel. The massive project next to Vela is about to go vertical as is the Pier, another marina heights size project right on the lake. On univsersity and 7th there is another double tower complex riding 20 or so stories. And I'm missing a lot.

Downtown Phoenix just topped off the banner university tower, RP23 is under construction, Hampton Inn is under construction as is the Circles tower.All of these are Steel.

Old Town is currently selling million dollar condos and Gilbert has the highest median income in the country.

I don't see a shortage of money here. And if you measured the percentage growth rate of the Phoenix downtown core it must be doing really well right now.

[Finger Laker]

Downtown had height restrictions due to sky harbor airport. Even if there was a desire to go taller, they wouldn't. A few years back they were pushing further restrictions and there have been numerous dust ups with Tempe and Phoenix over buildings throughout the years. Our heat pushes more concern here as well as the hot air is less dense and requires more power to get off the ground. The aviation concern is losing add engine or something similar during takeoff

Commercial buildings are going up and ate typically not frame.

Apartments are frame and they can be. It had little to do with what people can pay and more to do with the margins of developers and the lack of natural disasters that would limit frame buildings.

There is also land. The preference for many would to have a cluster of shorter buildings than one or two taller towers.

Trying to drive some deep meaning out of this is a stretch

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

Downtown had height restrictions due to sky harbor airport. Even if there was a desire to go taller, they wouldn't. A few years back they were pushing further restrictions and there have been numerous dust ups with Tempe and Phoenix over buildings throughout the years. Our heat pushes more concern here as well as the hot air is less dense and requires more power to get off the ground. The aviation concern is losing add engine or something similar during takeoff

Commercial buildings are going up and ate typically not frame.

Apartments are frame and they can be. It had little to do with what people can pay and more to do with the margins of developers and the lack of natural disasters that would limit frame buildings.

There is also land. The preference for many would to have a cluster of shorter buildings than one or two taller towers.

Trying to drive some deep meaning out of this is a stretch

Agreed, Tempe is now landlocked and it's going vertical in a big way, out of necessity. No builder would use a more expensive construction cost than they have to. And like Phoenix there will never be super tall also due to proximity to the airport.

[asufan]

I can't believe 6 people didn't think Phoenix is Suburban in nature

[locolife]

Originally Posted by asufan

I can't believe 6 people didn't think Phoenix is Suburban in nature

What's the definition of urban and how does downtown Phoenix not meet it? Because Atlanta has taller buildings does that mean we're not urban? Does that mean D.C. is not urban if so? Is there a set density that defines urban somehow? It's not a cut and dry definition.

Can you live, work and play in downtown Phoenix without a car? Absolutely. You can live at cityscape, work at a Fortune 500 HQ, take in pro sports, arts, live music and tons of dining plus traverse the valley in a train without needing a car. Seems like we've got an urban area to me. Of course Phoenix has suburban parts, so does every other city as we've beat to death in conversations on here.

[asufan]

Originally Posted by locolife

What's the definition of urban and how does downtown Phoenix not meet it? Because Atlanta has taller buildings does that mean we're not urban? Does that mean D.C. is not urban if so? Is there a set density that defines urban somehow? It's not a cut and dry definition.

Can you live, work and play in downtown Phoenix without a car? Absolutely. You can live at cityscape, work at a Fortune 500 HQ, take in pro sports, arts, live music and tons of dining plus traverse the valley in a train without needing a car. Seems like we've got an urban area to me. Of course Phoenix has suburban parts, so does every other city as we've beat to death in conversations on here.

I'm not commenting at all on Atlanta, I am talking about the City of Phoenix. Downtown is Quasi Urban but Phoenix as a whole is suburban in nature, no doubt about it. Downtown Phoenix itself has a lot of work to do in terms of walkability, with still lots of dead zones, and lots of buildings that don't work well with pedestrians. From a planning perspective (and I was an undergrad Urban Planning major) it is very suburban/automobile oriented.