Another bland apartment complex coming to historic downtown (Phoenix, Scottsdale: living in, moving to)

[Colt AZ]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

Hard to tell if your post is serious or not (my post was 100% serious, you can't have low density in the central core of a major city unless you want those crappy houses to go up in value to like $10 million dollars a piece)

Yes, Mr Camaro. In this case, I was serious, even though I presented in a mostly non-serious way. Why should we be glum on these forums? I'm a happy guy. It's who I am, and what I do.

Now, if you were 100% serious, does that mean your "Oh, muh precious mountain views" was serious as well? What were you referring to with your "muh" spelling?

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

Oh no, muh precious mountain views

Sounds just like the NIMBY mentality. Again, we are the 5th biggest city and 12th biggest metro (14th biggest if you use CSA instead of MSA); it's time to build like it in high demand areas.

Now if a glut of 6 story apartments were built around say 56th St and Cactus, you might have a point, but we're talking centrally located parts of the city here.

I am definitely a NIMBY. Many people here moved away from environments clogged with high rise buildings for a large, low density, less stressful city. I am convinced that many of the people who want to bring in high rise development left and right have never lived in a city of that design for an appreciable amount of time. No one visiting from Tulsa is going to ooohh and ahhhh over some urbanist's dream of 60 story skyscrapers filling up downtown. One only has to look at a city like Houston, which is full of high rises, but almost completely dead of people at ground level outside of working hours.

I don't care how many people live here. It's sad that some people have such little man syndrome that they are actually upset over the lack of high rises compared to other cities. Mobile, Alabama's (the 129th biggest metro) tallest building is almost 150 feet higher than Phoenix's. That means nothing. Instead of changing Phoenix into something it's not, it might be time to move to Los Angeles or even San Diego for places where that kind of development is accepted.

56th and Cactus would be a ridiculous place for a 5-6 story skyscraper. Most developers, even downtown, don't go above six stories because they realize how ridiculous it would be to go any taller here. There are a handful who are trying something different and ruining the atmosphere here in the process.

Originally Posted by exit2lef

It's unsurprising that rents in older apartment buildings are decreasing as new buildings are erected nearby. Despite heated rhetoric about "luxury condos" and long-time residents being "forced out," an increase in supply usually leads to price competition. If we have more housing options at more price levels in the heart of the city, that's a good outcome.

As for heat, taller buildings provide much more shade than one-story bungalows. As the city works to make Third Street more amenable to pedestrians and bicyclists, it will be helpful to have more of the street in shadow at more times of day. Mountain views are nice, but when we try to preserve them at all costs, we encourage more sprawl that eventually encroaches upon the natural areas we're admiringly looking at.

Cities are intrinsically unnatural. The earliest humans were nomadic, and cities took hold only as agriculture developed. Nevertheless, allowing density and development to be concentrated in a central core seems like a good way to decrease pressure for new housing on the suburban fringe, where even more pristine desert land might be threatened by development.

I agree about the parking garages, though. Unfortunately, sometimes developers and those who finance them still cling to outmoded ratios of tenants to cars without taking in account the effects of light rail, rideshare services, and work-from-home arrangements. It will take time for that mentality to change.

Price competition is not needed for residents who lived in a neighborhood long before some wealthier group "discovered" it called it "hip." Your idea of relegating the poor to the outskirts of the city while people with higher incomes live in shiny high rises is exactly how third world cities are set up. That is not the direction a wannabe world class city would want to head in to garner more national respect.

As for heat, one only has to look at NYC to see how the effect of having a glut of high rises causes heat retention at nighttime. Compared to the low density suburbs, NYC summer nights can be unbearable steam baths with 20-25 degree differences between the city a suburb sometimes occurring. The same impact happens downtown. The presence of an extreme amount of development is why downtown Phoenix, Sky Harbor, and Downtown Tempe have the hottest nights Valleywide.

People will not walk in this city. I still routinely walk in the areas of the high rise residential towers downtown and NEVER see anyone coming in and out of the doors to walk. Everyone in those buildings hops in a car in their large parking garages and drive where they need to go. It's a fact. The high rises in NY and other actual urban places often have very little on site parking because few residents actually own cars. Developers in Phoenix know how people here get around wherever they need to go. By car. I lived downtown and took light rail to work once in three years.

Lastly, 43 percent of the land in the city of Phoenix is vacant. I'm not advocating for building out farther. There is plenty of land within the existing urban boundary that can be filled with lower density, more contextually appropriate development. People are not going to stop moving to east Queen Creek or west Buckeye because some developer slaps up a 30 story building downtown. Most people here who live in suburban style communities want to live in suburban style communities. People are not living in North Peoria because of a supposed lack of high rise, high density apartment options closer to the core.

[ColdAilment]

Originally Posted by AndyDwyer480

https://www.azcentral.com/story/mone...nts/641710002/



Great another one. Soon the downtown area will be as dense as the subburbs and even worse during events and daily downtown traffic flows.

I liked the neighborhood I lived in in Downtown because of all of the older houses and how unlike the rest of the city it is(soon to be was)

Less planned neighborhood, more alleys, parks, CULTURE!!!!!!

Soon downtown will look like the boring desert subburbs with taller buildings and more traffic.

You're in the wrong part of the country if you like historic neighborhoods and a city that will preserve them.

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by new2colo

I am definitely a NIMBY. Many people here moved away from environments clogged with high rise buildings for a large, low density, less stressful city. I am convinced that many of the people who want to bring in high rise development left and right have never lived in a city of that design for an appreciable amount of time. No one visiting from Tulsa is going to ooohh and ahhhh over some urbanist's dream of 60 story skyscrapers filling up downtown. One only has to look at a city like Houston, which is full of high rises, but almost completely dead of people at ground level outside of working hours.

I don't care how many people live here. It's sad that some people have such little man syndrome that they are actually upset over the lack of high rises compared to other cities. Mobile, Alabama's (the 129th biggest metro) tallest building is almost 150 feet higher than Phoenix's. That means nothing. Instead of changing Phoenix into something it's not, it might be time to move to Los Angeles or even San Diego for places where that kind of development is accepted.

56th and Cactus would be a ridiculous place for a 5-6 story skyscraper. Most developers, even downtown, don't go above six stories because they realize how ridiculous it would be to go any taller here. There are a handful who are trying something different and ruining the atmosphere here in the process.



Price competition is not needed for residents who lived in a neighborhood long before some wealthier group "discovered" it called it "hip." Your idea of relegating the poor to the outskirts of the city while people with higher incomes live in shiny high rises is exactly how third world cities are set up. That is not the direction a wannabe world class city would want to head in to garner more national respect.

As for heat, one only has to look at NYC to see how the effect of having a glut of high rises causes heat retention at nighttime. Compared to the low density suburbs, NYC summer nights can be unbearable steam baths with 20-25 degree differences between the city a suburb sometimes occurring. The same impact happens downtown. The presence of an extreme amount of development is why downtown Phoenix, Sky Harbor, and Downtown Tempe have the hottest nights Valleywide.

People will not walk in this city. I still routinely walk in the areas of the high rise residential towers downtown and NEVER see anyone coming in and out of the doors to walk. Everyone in those buildings hops in a car in their large parking garages and drive where they need to go. It's a fact. The high rises in NY and other actual urban places often have very little on site parking because few residents actually own cars. Developers in Phoenix know how people here get around wherever they need to go. By car. I lived downtown and took light rail to work once in three years.

Lastly, 43 percent of the land in the city of Phoenix is vacant. I'm not advocating for building out farther. There is plenty of land within the existing urban boundary that can be filled with lower density, more contextually appropriate development. People are not going to stop moving to east Queen Creek or west Buckeye because some developer slaps up a 30 story building downtown. Most people here who live in suburban style communities want to live in suburban style communities. People are not living in North Peoria because of a supposed lack of high rise, high density apartment options closer to the core.

Increased density is going to happen, it's what happens when demand exceeds supply, it allows density to be profitable. If you guys want a low density city, maybe you should move to Tucson....

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by new2colo

Your idea of relegating the poor to the outskirts of the city while people with higher incomes live in shiny high rises is exactly how third world cities are set up.

Not my idea at all. What I said is that if rents are decreasing for older apartment buildings in central Phoenix, then price competition will help keep the heart of the city affordable, allowing for exactly the opposite outcome of the scenario described above.

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

If you guys want a low density city, maybe you should move to Tucson....

Down in Tucson, anti-development activists are up in arms over "high rises" in the Fourth Avenue business district that lies between the UA campus and downtown. They're making the usual noises about not wanting to become "another Phoenix."

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Not my idea at all. What I said is that if rents are decreasing for older apartment buildings in central Phoenix, then price competition will help keep the heart of the city affordable, allowing for exactly the opposite outcome of the scenario described above.



Down in Tucson, anti-development activists are up in arms over "high rises" in the Fourth Avenue business district that lies between the UA campus and downtown. They're making the usual noises about not wanting to become "another Phoenix."

They already succeeded in that by not allowing any freeways lol. Driving around Tucson sucks if you have to go to the Northeast side of town

[grmi66]

Just drove by this site a few minutes ago. The bulldozers are quite busy today, all the houses will probably be gone by the end of the day.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

Increased density is going to happen, it's what happens when demand exceeds supply, it allows density to be profitable. If you guys want a low density city, maybe you should move to Tucson....

5th biggest city, 13th largest metro and one of the highest growth rates in the country. Add to this the fact that both millennial and emptynesters are demanding urban living and you’ve got a receipe that drastically increases density in a city that didn’t historically grow that way.

I think it’s a good thing, I’d much rather see is grow up than further out. I believe the environmental and resource impact is far less growing in this manner and I hate to see more raw desert converted to sprawl.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by AndyDwyer480

https://www.azcentral.com/story/mone...nts/641710002/



Great another one. Soon the downtown area will be as dense as the subburbs and even worse during events and daily downtown traffic flows.

I liked the neighborhood I lived in in Downtown because of all of the older houses and how unlike the rest of the city it is(soon to be was)

Less planned neighborhood, more alleys, parks, CULTURE!!!!!!

Soon downtown will look like the boring desert subburbs with taller buildings and more traffic.

“Historic downtown”. Lol are you new? Downtown was an abandoned crack den until 10 years ago.

He last thing this city needs now that is finally growing is NIMBY’s complaining about non exsistant “history” that was demolished 50 years ago

[Luckystrike1]

There does not appear to be anything wrong with these houses (unless there's more wrong than we can see). Many of these look like perfect homes for retirees (single-level) or starter homes for young couples/families. Is this is a bad neighborhood or something???

I feel your woes. We're experiencing the very same things in Portland, only here ~ seems like everybody is converging into Portland, the city with the biggest housing and traffic problem in Oregon.