So discouraged about plumbing. (Phoenix: water heater, to buy, softener)

[Voebe]

I mentioned before that I'm trying to decide what to do about bathroom sinks - one needs a new faucet, and it turns out the valves are frozen, so I have to take care of that, too, and then there's the question of whether I should do all three.

Apart from the fact that I'm suspicious whenever anyone wants to substitute plastic for metal, which is apparently what's used for pipes now, it's so discouraging to have plumbers tell me that they'll be replacing plumbing which has been working fine for 30 years with new replacements which may likely conk out after 5-10 years. I suppose this is just the curse of everything modern, and casual disposability - one plumber was saying that even the steel itself, now made in Mexico, not the U.S., is inferior. But I'm guessing that some part of it may be specifically a local problem, right? I mean, the temperature variations and the minerals in the water? And that doesn't even take into account how discouraging it is that so many plumbers won't even return calls.

[Ponderosa]

Moen, maybe Pfister and others warranty their fixtures for "lifetime". They will send you a replacement if the faucet fails. I exercised this with my kitchen faucet after about 10 years. The old one was no longer in production, but they sent me a fancy new style at no cost. They did not cover labor, but I do this kind of thing myself anyway. The name brands do cost a lot more than the Chinese stuff, but the warranty may or may not make the difference worth it.

Most of today's faucets have a cartridge than can be replaced (if you can get it out!) which makes them good as new. The finishes that are popular though are subject to corrosion and, of course, people have this compulsion in these times to remodel to match the current trend. So keeping that faucet beyond 10 years is not something that matters as much as maybe it used to.

As for the pipes, PEX is better than copper IMO. It is an improvement just like PVC and ABS were a big improvement over cast iron waste pipe and cheap metal traps. The valves have always been junk in the sense that they freeze up in our hard water conditions.

[DougStark]

Agree with all of Ponderosa's points.

Yes, the high amount of minerals in our water is a big pain in the $#s. One thing I do myself is take the faucet apart, clean it in vinegar, and put plenty of silicone grease on the rubber parts. Reinstall.

I don't have a salt based softener (bad for environment), but I may try one the NuvoH20 water conditioner that uses citric acid.

[DetroitN8V]

Quit letting yourself be so frustrated and suspicious over nothing. Products change and improve over time. There’s no conspiracy against you and your pipes. PEX is a superior product.

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by DougStark

I don't have a salt based softener (bad for environment), but I may try one the NuvoH20 water conditioner that uses citric acid.

Those are even worse....on your wallet. Trust me - if they worked, I'd sell them. I'm replacing one next week - the poor folks that have it are beating themselves up for having fallen for the hype.

As to PEX - properly installed, it's going to give you better service life than copper. Just don't use the "shark bite" fittings on them if they're going to be behind walls - I spent $700 on the tool to install the "Wirsbo" type fittings, which I feel are the best currently available, but there are others - almost any of which, IMO, are more reliable than the shark bites.

As far as your cut-off valves - yeah, the compression-style stops are infamous for freezing up, especially in high-mineral content water. I always recommend folks use the ball-valve style stops, and cycle them off/one annually.

[DougStark]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

Those are even worse....on your wallet. Trust me - if they worked, I'd sell them. I'm replacing one next week - the poor folks that have it are beating themselves up for having fallen for the hype.

As to PEX - properly installed, it's going to give you better service life than copper. Just don't use the "shark bite" fittings on them if they're going to be behind walls - I spent $700 on the tool to install the "Wirsbo" type fittings, which I feel are the best currently available, but there are others - almost any of which, IMO, are more reliable than the shark bites.

As far as your cut-off valves - yeah, the compression-style stops are infamous for freezing up, especially in high-mineral content water. I always recommend folks use the ball-valve style stops, and cycle them off/one annually.

Redneck, care to elaborate on your negative opinions on the nuvoH2o system? I realize it's way overpriced for the siimplicity of the unit, but aren't replacement cartridges relatively inexpensive?

Anyway, if I decide against the Nuvo brand system, I can make my own set-up that will do the same thing--all one needs to do is invest in a proportional injector that puts liquid citric acid from a tank into the water line (before it hits the water heater.)

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by DougStark

Redneck, care to elaborate on your negative opinions on the nuvoH2o system? I realize it's way overpriced for the siimplicity of the unit, but aren't replacement cartridges relatively inexpensive?

Anyway, if I decide against the Nuvo brand system, I can make my own set-up that will do the same thing--all one needs to do is invest in a proportional injector that puts liquid citric acid from a tank into the water line (before it hits the water heater.)

What you're essentially doing is attempting to control scale by lowering the pH - with plumbing not designed for acidic water. That is likely to cause leaching of other minerals/metals as the water attempts to regain pH balance. More importantly, pro's doing this commercially find it a challenge - in a residential setting, it's essentially impossible because the only way to even have a shot at an effective system is by proportional feeding of the acid - very few folks have the skills (or the budget) to do so.

[AZJoeD]

Plumbers are people too!

Why plumbers make so much money

[DougStark]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

What you're essentially doing is attempting to control scale by lowering the pH - with plumbing not designed for acidic water. That is likely to cause leaching of other minerals/metals as the water attempts to regain pH balance. More importantly, pro's doing this commercially find it a challenge - in a residential setting, it's essentially impossible because the only way to even have a shot at an effective system is by proportional feeding of the acid - very few folks have the skills (or the budget) to do so.

OK, I knew what you've said (that the Nuvo system tries to lower the pH of the water.) BUT, here in Phoenix, there is SO MUCH alkalinity and minerals in the water, I highly doubt you are going to make your tap water "acidic", and I also highly doubt that the Nuvo-treated water will eat up your copper pipes (because all the alkalinity in water needs to be "used up" before the pH of the water can be lowered--it's chemistry. And there is SO much alkalinity in our local tap water, that's not going to happen.)

What the Nuvo system does, from my understanding, is to prevent the water high in minerals from precipitating (depositing on surfaces in a crusty, hard scale), whether it be the water heater, dishwasher, washing machine, etc. It does this by "binding up" some of the minerals that precipitate and prevent lather (calcium carbonate and calcium bicarbonate.)

I have a hunch that to effectively control hard water scaling with Phoenix's extremely hard water, one would need to install two of these Nuvo units in tandem--not sure, just a guess. Anyway, if a person did install two, they could be installed in a way that allows only one to operate, both to operate, or none to operate just by using ball valves, on or off.

But like I said, I'm probably going to make my own system using a proportional injector (the expensive part of the set-up), a tank with citric acid, and tubing. Nothing really that hard to do. Powdered citric acid is not that expensive (easy to buy on ebay).

Just my thoughts on the issue...

[TexasRedneck]

Originally Posted by DougStark

But like I said, I'm probably going to make my own system using a proportional injector (the expensive part of the set-up), a tank with citric acid, and tubing. Nothing really that hard to do. Powdered citric acid is not that expensive (easy to buy on ebay).

Just my thoughts on the issue...

Best of luck to you. Sure - if you know what you're doing, you might have a shot at it - but unless you drop the pH, you're only going to reduce the symptoms, not stop the problem. And by the time you're done, you'll have a system far more complex than most would be able to consistently maintain, plus a lot more expense once you factor in the various components to ensure proper mixing of the chemical into the water. And be careful of the chemicals you use - not all are food grade, or all that pure. That's why the Nuvo systems don't work - they have no way of proportionally mixing - plus it's a flawed design, IMO. When we install a system, we have to stand behind it. If you read their literature, they have all kinds of "outs' when it doesn't do the job - ask any cooling tower guy about how effective improperly set-up and/or maintained acid systems are.