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Cities could step in and create their own version of rideshare. That would be something I would support. To me light rail is a little outdated as it doesn't really afford end users the flexibility that Uber/Lyft do.
Public transit should not be shut down because it's an essential public service. The scariest aspect of the Uber / Lyft bubble is that some elected officials have used the existence of those companies, along with the prospect of autonomous vehicles, to justify reduced investment in public transit. If Uber and Lyft collapse and go away, there may be collateral damage beyond the companies themselves.
In terms of farebox recovery, the exact number varies from year to year, but over a decade of operation, Valley Metro has often reported numbers in the 35% range:
It should be less dependant on tax dollars, if that's not possible then sure they should shut it down. We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars that could be spent on homeless shelters, SNAP, etc. over 10 years. Bring up the fares by $0.50-$1.00 and all passes up 35%-50% and you will bring the ratio well above 60%. Sell more ad space and that gap gets even smaller. The people who use the service should responsible for the majority of the financial support of that service.
2009 $12.5m spent on 5.6m riders
2010 $23.7m spent on 12.1m riders
2011 $20.8m spent on 12.8m riders
2012 $17m spent on 13.6m riders
2013 $15.9m spent on 14.3m riders
2014 $18.8m spent on 14.3m riders
2015 $18.5m spent on 14.3m riders
2016 $21.6m spent on 15.5m riders
2017 $31.5m spent on 16.5m riders
2018 $31m spent on 15.8m riders
That's $211m spent over a decade; that money could have been invested elsewhere and we could have gotten a better return on it. And that's just the operating costs completely separate of the construction costs which is simply money that will never be repaid. Now not all of it is state money but it's still my tax dollars paying for someone else's ride around town, why should I pay for you to get to work?
That's $211m spent over a decade; that money could have been invested elsewhere and we could have gotten a better return on it. And that's just the operating costs completely separate of the construction costs which is simply money that will never be repaid. Now not all of it is state money but it's still my tax dollars paying for someone else's ride around town, why should I pay for you to get to work?
Do you understand how roads work? They aren’t paid for by magic sky fairies. Our tax dollars pay for every single mile, including those in neighborhoods I’ll literally never travel to in my life. Why should I pay for you to get to the grocery store? Oh right, because that’s literally how society functions.
Do you understand how roads work? They aren’t paid for by magic sky fairies. Our tax dollars pay for every single mile, including those in neighborhoods I’ll literally never travel to in my life. Why should I pay for you to get to the grocery store? Oh right, because that’s literally how society functions.
True, but roads are used by the VAST majority of people. They cover all access points in the Valley and beyond. Whether or not you use a road in my neighborhood doesn't matter. You will use A road at some point in your life. I will never use the light rail - and neither will the majority of people.
True, but roads are used by the VAST majority of people. They cover all access points in the Valley and beyond. Whether or not you use a road in my neighborhood doesn't matter. You will use A road at some point in your life. I will never use the light rail - and neither will the majority of people.
There are millions of people in metro Phoenix who will never use the road near your house. And yet they all pay for it, because we understand that for society to function, people have to be able to get around. Light rail and buses operate on the same premise. People who don’t own cars, who care about the environment, or who don’t want to contribute to increasingly clogged roads still have a right to be able to move around. Whether you choose to use it or not is irrelevant. Just like the library. It’s a public good that benefits society at large and makes things function better for everyone, either directly or indirectly.
Cities could step in and create their own version of rideshare. That would be something I would support. To me light rail is a little outdated as it doesn't really afford end users the flexibility that Uber/Lyft do.
Phoenix already subsidizes Lyft rides for last-mile service beyond the reach of its bus routes. There are other cities that have tried similar approaches in low-density areas. In those situations, subsidized rideshare or taxi might make sense. In central cities, however, it does not. A train or bus can move far more people at lower cost with greater efficiency and fewer negatives in terms of congestion and pollution. One fear I have, though, is that some cities may find themselves eventually having to subsidize rideshare even in places where it doesn't make sense. If a city fails to invest in transit because of cheap rideshare, it could then find itself in a dire situation when Uber and Lyft either go out of business or drastically raise prices. With both companies now publicly traded, they'll have to revise their business models in order to deliver profits to shareholders. If they can't do that or if the prices go too high, governments may have to step in if they haven't invested enough in buses and trains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Manager
It should be less dependant on tax dollars, if that's not possible then sure they should shut it down. We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars that could be spent on homeless shelters, SNAP, etc. over 10 years. Bring up the fares by $0.50-$1.00 and all passes up 35%-50% and you will bring the ratio well above 60%. Sell more ad space and that gap gets even smaller. The people who use the service should responsible for the majority of the financial support of that service.
2009 $12.5m spent on 5.6m riders
2010 $23.7m spent on 12.1m riders
2011 $20.8m spent on 12.8m riders
2012 $17m spent on 13.6m riders
2013 $15.9m spent on 14.3m riders
2014 $18.8m spent on 14.3m riders
2015 $18.5m spent on 14.3m riders
2016 $21.6m spent on 15.5m riders
2017 $31.5m spent on 16.5m riders
2018 $31m spent on 15.8m riders
That's $211m spent over a decade; that money could have been invested elsewhere and we could have gotten a better return on it. And that's just the operating costs completely separate of the construction costs which is simply money that will never be repaid. Now not all of it is state money but it's still my tax dollars paying for someone else's ride around town, why should I pay for you to get to work?
Actually, the money couldn't be spent for other purposes, no matter how worthwhile. The three levels of funding involved in light rail (Phoenix Proposition 104, Maricopa County Proposition 400, and Federal Transit Administration money -- none of it from the state government) are all earmarked for transit. They can't be reallocated for SNAP or homeless shelters. Valley Metro probably should consider a fare increase. It has been nearly a decade since the last one, and fares are a bit lower than in many peer cities. On the other hand, the increased revenue from higher fares always has to be weighed against a potential decrease in ridership -- especially when transit faces competition from rideshare services that are priced below cost in an attempt to gain market share. In answer to your question about paying for someone to get to work, anyone can ask that about anyone else. Until we live in some sort of libertarian fantasy land in which all roads are toll roads and motorists are billed for traffic enforcement and emergency response, it's inaccurate to pretend that driving is not heavily subsidized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sno0909
True, but roads are used by the VAST majority of people. They cover all access points in the Valley and beyond. Whether or not you use a road in my neighborhood doesn't matter. You will use A road at some point in your life. I will never use the light rail - and neither will the majority of people.
That's an apples-and-oranges comparison. As you note, there are roads virtually everywhere. There is one 28-mile light rail line. The infrastructure investments made in the past influence the travel patterns that exist today. Claiming superiority of one mode over another based on majority behavior is meaningful only if comparing two equivalent networks. A more valid comparison would be between 28 miles of a single road and the 28-mile light rail line.
Do you understand how roads work? They aren’t paid for by magic sky fairies. Our tax dollars pay for every single mile, including those in neighborhoods I’ll literally never travel to in my life. Why should I pay for you to get to the grocery store? Oh right, because that’s literally how society functions.
Wrong, gas taxes pay for the roads so if you're not buying gas then you're not paying the tax for the roads.
The Arizona tax on gasoline (motor vehicle fuel) is 18¢ per gallon. Use fuel (diesel) is taxed at two rates in Arizona. If the use fuel is used in the propulsion of a use class motor vehicle on a highway in this state, the tax rate is 26¢ for each gallon. https://azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/pro...x-evasion-unit
Do you understand how roads work? They aren’t paid for by magic sky fairies. Our tax dollars pay for every single mile, including those in neighborhoods I’ll literally never travel to in my life. Why should I pay for you to get to the grocery store? Oh right, because that’s literally how society functions.
I didn't really want to have a debate that isn't really about anything in question. The light rail uses $31m a year more than it earns. That can be offset pretty easily with a fare increase, how that hasn't happened recently is mind boggling.
First, could you get a more apples to oranges comparison? Secondly, the tax dollars aquired almost exclusively from the people using the service, fuel taxes, registration fees, sales taxes gained in that cmunity (I'm in a wealthy area so our sales taxes far exceed maintaining the services already) that kind of thing.
Much more importantly though, the road outside my house spurs further tax revenue, I pay sales tax every time I get a delivery for example or the taxes collected from the trash pickups etc. Not to mention those things create multiple jobs which further expand the tax base to help pay for the services needed for those things to continue to operate. The maintenance for that road is actually funded through property taxes and the construction of that road was paid for through the sale of the home. In AZ the cities rarely build roads it's almost always the developer who does it.
You don't pay a dime for the road in front of my house, ignoring the fact that the road in front of my house is a dirt road that my neighbors and I are responsible for that leads to a major street that's used by hundreds of people FAR more often than me. Comparatively, I pay for that light rail through income/property taxes to the state/fed (about $82k a year combined with the overwhelming majority of that being property taxes).
A light rail that I will only ever be within a mile of twice a year at most and will never set foot on. AZ has a population of 7m people and the light rail eats up $31m a year. Assuming every single person pays taxes and we split that $31m evenly (that's not how taxes work) then I'm paying $13 a year ($31m / 7m people * 3 people in my household) for something I'll never use. However, because that's not how taxes work I'm paying quite a bit more for that light rail.
I think the people using the thing could pay a little more to do so instead of stealing my hard earned money. The entitlement of some people always astounds me, justify why someone else should pay for another person's transportation. Housing and food I can get behind but things like transportation... get your hand out of my pocket already.
Do you seriously think roads are fully funded by the gas tax? That’s hilarious.
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