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Not sure I get your point. We lived in Chapel Hill. My wife was a resident at Duke Med. We know the area fairly well. CH is very liberal, especially (but not exclusively) around the U on Franklin. Once you get outside CH (Pittsboro, Governors Club) and surrounding areas, it's rural conservatives to be sure.
There are many alternatives to Christian schools in Phoenix such as Phoenix Country Day. Duke University is a Christian School (methodist actually) but it's extremely liberal so I fail to see how a school being affiliated with some church automatically makes it a conservative Christian school? You are essentially basing your opinion of Phoenix because a large number of the private high schools have St. something in the name.
Yes, Phoenix Country Day is definitely a great looking school and provides an excellent traditional education from what I hear. That said, it is only one school in a large city (and costs $20K per child if I remember correctly so I imagine there is a rather conservative bent to it. Tends to be that way with the very high-end-cost schools, particularly those with a very traditional approach to education which this school has).
As for Duke, I am not saying every religious schools is a conservative religious school. However, it is a christian school. As an atheist, this would not work for me or many who are on the more liberal end of things. Some liberals yes, but generally more liberal towns have more "alternative" schooling options. Certainly a city the size of Phoenix surprises me that it does not have many, if any.
Tucson, for example, is much smaller and yet has a number of more progressive (or whatever you want to call them), schools. It's no accident or surprise that Waldorf is in Tucson (and Boulder) and not Phoenix.
This thread, though I seem to spend a lot of time defending myself, has definitely given me a decent idea of the difference between Boulder and Phoenix.
BTW, I have lived all over the world and in many different areas in the U.S. Perhaps you have your definition of liberal and I have mine. There is no *one* definition.
That's because Chapell Hill is a college campus full of students from the east coast. Talk to the actual natives who don't attend UNC and see how liberal they are. The same applies to Boulder. I went to Duke for undergrad so I know the area well. I have a lot of friends who went to UNC and we used to make fun of the Durham and Chapel Hill residents because they are anything but liberal. Yeah, maybe if I was attending UNC, it might seem liberal but if I'm actually working in the town, that's a completely different experience unless of course your job centers around the university
Sorry, that's just wrong, plain and simple. All our neighbors are older, have lived here 30+ years and they are very very liberal. There are certain exceptions, especially Wexford (technically in Carrboro actually) which are notoriously conservative and about the only place you can put a Republican candidate's name outside and expect to actually see another one.
And, you lived in Durham if you went to Duke, and probably hung out w/other students. As a full-grown adult who lives in Chapel Hill, I can tell you people flock here b/c it's a liberal place. no place is 100% anything, so there are of course exceptions but generally people who are not liberal hate Chapel Hill and Carrboro.
Thank you for moving this thread to a more relevant place.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Miamiman, you really seem incapable of thinking beyond the box. First off, I said that the city of Denver reminded me of the city of Los Angeles, and that Boulder reminded me of Santa Monica. I didn't say suburban Denver reminded me of Los Angeles.
I apologize for misinterpreting your statement comparing DT Denver to DT Los Angeles, and DT Boulder to DT Santa Monica.
If you remember I was arguing with you about you assertion that Phoenix is not a West Coast city. I gave you ways in which Phoenix and Los Angeles shared similarities: the winter weather, close business ties, freeway culture, smog, etc. You attempted to dismiss my argument because all of those qualities are not positive. The similarities do not have to be rosy for them to prove true.
I don't know if your main objective is to show me that Los Angeles and Denver share similarities, because you certainly haven't disproved ANY statement I made comparing Phoenix and Los Angeles in proving that Phoenix is a West Coast city.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Denver, like most of the city of Los Angeles, is an old city with historic neighborhoods and a kind of "urban suburban" feel to it.
Now into your statement here. If you think Denver and Los Angeles are "old cities" compared to Phoenix, I really think this further shows a weakness in your argument. Denver was incorporated in 1858, Los Angeles was incorporated in 1850, and Phoenix was incorporated in 1881. That's a difference of 23 years between the incorporation of Denver and Phoenix. 23 years Like Denver and Los Angeles, Phoenix has historic neighborhoods with some homes that date back to the 1800s. Phoenix remained a lot smaller than Denver and Los Angeles for a number of decades, largely due to the harsh climate. As a result, Phoenix historic neighborhoods are not as large as those of Los Angeles' or Denver's. Yes, Denver also has a large percentage of Jews in Wes Colfax and Hilltop. I fail to see your point and how this prevents Phoenix from being a West Coast city.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Streets like Colfax Ave, Colorado Blvd, and Broadway/Lincoln in Denver have a very similar feel to well known LA streets like Wilshire, Santa Monica Blvd, Westwood Blvd, Figueroa, etc. The only street in Phoenix that reminds me of anything in LA is Central Ave-- Wilshire Blvd. Both LA and Denver are characterized by a lot of urban streets with dense businesses and residences backing right up to the street, but single family homes if you go off to the neighborhood streets a lot. Pretty much nowhere in Phoenix has that feel; Phoenix is characterized by wide setbacks and parking lots in front. Both Denver and LA have many major streets with on-street parallel parking in the right lane. Phoenix has nothing like that, with the exception of downtown areas. Old historic neighborhoods in LA (such as the area around USC) look very similar to old historic neighborhoods in Denver, with the exception that the ones in Denver have undergone a little more gentrification and are a little less gritty.
Good job in comparing the widths of three boulevards in LA to that of Denver. This shows that you obviously haven't been to the majority of the city. The vast majority of boulevards in LA are not like the one's you claim to have seen.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
You've also never been to Castle Rock, Castle Pines, Ken Caryl Ranch, Highlands Ranch, Monument, or suburban north Colorado Springs before, because in terms of the shape of the land with rolling brown hills and homes built on hills and freeways in narrow valleys, they are VERY similar to San Diego. Even the vegetation looks kind of similar, at least superficially-- the willows and prairie grasses and little bushes you see in the foothills (not the mountains) of Colorado look very similar to the vegetation on the top of mesas in San Diego. Now, the bulk of that flat lands in the Denver area don't remind of so cal, but then again neither does Phoenix's flat lands. Southern California and the front Range of Colorado both offer mammoth sized natural attractions which block development to the west of the city-- the beach and the mountains, respectively. What's the difference between the culture of surfers and the culture of snowboarders and skiiers? Seems like an even exchange to me. Phoenix, on the other hand, is located in the middle of the desert, with no formidible boundaries in any direction until you go way north of the city and hit the Mogollon Rim.
We all know that Phoenix doesn't have brown hills with development on them. Please do not make me laugh trying to compare the vegetation of coastal Southern California to that of Denver. They're nothing alike. Many of the trees/bushes that are grown in LA are also grown in Phoenix. That is not true of Denver. Who cares if there are natural boundaries in LA and Denver. How does that stop Phoenix from being a West Coast city?!
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Apparently, you've never been to LA before, because otherwise you'd know that the LA area has snowcapped mountains within sight much of the year too-- the San Gabriel mountains for example. I even took a picture while going along I-5 with snowcapped peaks in the background that looks like you're right in Denver.
The fact that you think the San Gabriel's are snowcapped much of the year round is beyond laughable. It has been a cool, relatively wet sping all over the Southwest. Maybe the mountains had snow on them several weeks ago. Try going back now. They will not have snow on them. You will see how completely egregious your claim is when you live out there. You won't see snow on the San Gabriel's until at least November. Please take a picture of yourself skiing down the San Gabriel's when you arrive in LA. I will enjoy the laugh.
Driving Wilshire or Venice from downtown to the beach and back does not constitute as having seen the city. When you move out to LA, if you haven't already, please try to travel away from the tourists areas. As someone who has ACTUALLY spent a signifcant time in Southern California, I can tell you that the majority of Boulevards do not look like portions of Wilshire and Santa Monica. All of Wilshire and Santa Monica are NOT framed with high-rise and high-density development as you claim. Try going to the San Fernando Valley. You will see very similar streetscapes to Phoenix, outside of downtown Glendale, Burbank. Keep in mind that most of the SFV is still part of the City of LA.
I already gave you similarities between LA and Phoenix in previous posts. Which one of them are laughable and/or aren't true? Um, none. It seems that you are really incapable of thinking outside of the box, if the only avenue you can use to try to disprove my original argument is to compare LA to other cities. You have YET to prove my original comparisons false.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
To even compare Phoenix to LA is laughable. I think Las Vegas, even though it's half the size of Phoenix, compares a lot more with LA and what it offers in terms of entertainment, celebrities, glitz and glamor than Phoenix, including Scottsdale.
Celebrities, entertainment, glitz, and glamour are all qualities that Scottsdale has. Who cares who has more in your opinion. Many celebrities from SoCal, no less, have homes in Scottsdale that they can escape to quickly. More than Denver. I don't see how your assertion prevents Phoenix from being a West Coast city.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Furthermore, much of the southern California-like aspects of Phoenix are very recent. Freeways, for example-- a little more than 10 years ago, Phoenix barely had any freeways. In-n-out Burger, El Pollo Loco are all relatively recent imports from California. Historically, Arizona is a pure western and southwestern state, and it's history resembles neighboring New Mexico quite a bit. You might argue that as time goes on, Arizona is becoming more California-like, but that's a relatively recent thing.
Phoenix has LONG had qualities similar to Southern California. Scottsdale was not recently termed "Beverly Hills of the Desert," the influx of Californians to Arizona is not just a recent trend, the filming of movies/shows in the Valley to double as Southern California is not a recent trend, etc. Nowhere have I claimed the ENTIRE state of Arizona is West Coast. Most areas outside of the Valley are nothing like Phoenix, except for portions of northwest and the east-side of Tucson.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Nothing elitist was meant by it. There are two ways to look at coastal southern California's "perfect climate"-- perfectly cool or perfectly warm. Those who like the warm aspect, looking for cheaper housing, move to places like Phoenix and Las Vegas. Those who appreciate SoCal for it's cool nights (and often cool days, if you're by the beach) and frequent cloudiness move to Oregon, Washington, or even Colorado.
Southern California does not have a perfect climate to all. Please realize that USC is in downtown LA. It regularly reaches over 90 degrees downtown. I also do not consider Santa Ana events where temperatures jump from their normal 65-80 degree range to 95-110 degrees and threaten wildfires to be attributes of a perfect climate. I do not considered 1 inch winter rainfall events that threaten mudslides in sinkholes to be attributes of a perfect climate. I do not consider pesky morning fog from May-June to be attributes of a perfect climate. I do not consider temps in the regularly in the low 60s at the beach until June to be attributes of a perfect climate. I do not consider being under a constant extreme threat of a deadly earthquake to be attributes of a perfect climate. To each his own.
Believe it or not, there are more factors that drive people's relocation than weather and the price of housing. Jobs, proximity to family, health, recreation are all reasons people move. That's why Arizona sees the in-migration it does.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
Anyway, I'm sick of this forum, and the bullies who impose on this forum from time to time. It's hard to have a rational conversation with a bunch of self-righteous know-it-alls.
I wouldn't call myself a self-righteous know-it-all. It's funny how you started a thread awhile back called concerning Phoenix being a West Coast city. Now you think you know all the answers because you recently came back from LA. If that isn't narrow-minded irrationality, I don't know what it is. If you were so convince that you knew the answer to your question, why did you ask it in the first place?
The fact of the matter is that I have traveled extensively, and know many places within the United States. All of us can't be mind-numbingly ignorant. I apologize if you get offended when people call you out on statements with which you don't agree. If it gets to you that much, maybe you should leave the forum. You obviously have EXTENSIVE traveling to do around the Los Angeles area before you attempt to debate with me whether or not Phoenix is a West Coast city. Type in Phoenix and West Coast into Google. You will find a result for 3,404 businesses with the term "West Coast" in their name in the CITY of Phoenix alone. Looks to me that I am not the only one with this thinking.
Not sure I get your point. We lived in Chapel Hill. My wife was a resident at Duke Med. We know the area fairly well. CH is very liberal, especially (but not exclusively) around the U on Franklin. Once you get outside CH (Pittsboro, Governors Club) and surrounding areas, it's rural conservatives to be sure.
What did you not understand? I was a student so obviously I dealt with a liberal student body. If I'm living in the town among the local residents, I'm dealing with a much different demographic. It's one thing to be a student in a town like Boulder and an adult working among the locals.
Yes, Phoenix Country Day is definitely a great looking school and provides an excellent traditional education from what I hear. That said, it is only one school in a large city (and costs $20K per child if I remember correctly so I imagine there is a rather conservative bent to it. Tends to be that way with the very high-end-cost schools, particularly those with a very traditional approach to education which this school has).
As for Duke, I am not saying every religious schools is a conservative religious school. However, it is a christian school. As an atheist, this would not work for me or many who are on the more liberal end of things. Some liberals yes, but generally more liberal towns have more "alternative" schooling options. Certainly a city the size of Phoenix surprises me that it does not have many, if any.
Tucson, for example, is much smaller and yet has a number of more progressive (or whatever you want to call them), schools. It's no accident or surprise that Waldorf is in Tucson (and Boulder) and not Phoenix.
This thread, though I seem to spend a lot of time defending myself, has definitely given me a decent idea of the difference between Boulder and Phoenix.
BTW, I have lived all over the world and in many different areas in the U.S. Perhaps you have your definition of liberal and I have mine. There is no *one* definition.
I'm from California originally so I don't really need any explanation as to what constitutes liberalism. There are more schools than Phoenix Country Day. I didn't feel like going down a list of schools which is why I used the term "such as." There are 42 private high schools in Maricopa country. I think you are losing sight of the original point of contention. You are essentially trying to argue that Phoenix is more religous simply based on the names of the private high schools which you also acknowledge is more or less secular. I'm not very religous either but I would much rather live in Phoenix than a place that is literrally surrounded by evangelicals like Boulder. What are you going to do: confine yourself to Boulder or Chapel Hill? Phoenix does not have the same level right-wing evangelical influence that the Denver-Boulder area has. There is a reason there are so many public tele-evangelists and large Baptist churches and schools like Colorado Christian University in the greater Denver area. The valley has a significant Mormon population but unlike evangelicals, they don't push their views on you and are much more tolerant in general.
It simply not logical to suggest that these cities like Boulder and Chapel Hill are completely isolated from the overwhelming political environment that surrounds it. I think you are confusing educated and friendly with liberal. Many of the people in the "Research Triangle" are also southern Baptist despite their education and their faith tends to incorporate many conservative views. They might not openly express their views to you since they are educated but if you engage them, you will discover that many are aggressively against homesexuality and some are even against interracial marriage and dating. And don't get me started on Tucson. Tucson has it's fair share of good ole boys and cowboys. I don't know where they get that Tucson is liberal. I travel to Tucson quite often to give talks to physicians at the University of Arizona. It's similar to Boulder in that the student population is liberal but the population in general quite frankly scares me. The only liberal aspect to Tuscon are the liberal kids from Phoenix and the upper midwest who go to school there.
I'm not very religous either but I would much rather live in Phoenix than a place that is literrally surrounded by evangelicals like Boulder. What are you going to do: confine yourself to Boulder or Chapel Hill? Phoenix does not have the same level right-wing evangelical influence that the Denver-Boulder area has. There is a reason there are so many public tele-evangelists and large Baptist churches and schools like Colorado Christian University in the greater Denver area. The valley has a significant Mormon population but unlike evangelicals, they don't push their views on you and are much more tolerant in general.
Vegaspilgrim quoted your post in the Boulder forum; we all had a good laugh. Boulder is SO the opposite of what you're saying, you don't even know.
Clearly, this poster has never been to Colorado, but perhaps he/she is mixed up between media impressions of Colorado Springs and is transposing it with Boulder? Even Colorado Springs can't live up to it's reputation as an evangelical haven, but Boulder? Or Denver, for that matter?
Honestly, where you grow up usually has to do with your opinion on this topic. My brother in laws family is from Colorado, he came down to AZ to go to ASU and get a change of environment. He met my sister and they moved back to Colorado. His parents moved down here to Scottsdale and love it except for summers. My parents fell in love with Colorado and moved up there. My whole family has moved up there and his to here. I'm moving there in 3 weeks because I can't stand PHX anymore. There are some exceptions, but most people want a change of environment at some point in their life. I love the mountains and cold weather mainly because I was deprived of great scenery living in PHX. So there ya go, it's all in the environment you desire.
It's funny how everyone here talks about how your in an area of PHX that is really nice, then you go a mile north or south and your in the ghetto....so very true!
By the way, the crime in AZ is getting worse and the road rage and people are getting less friendly by the year.
Be ready for a feeling of standing in front of a blow dryer for about 5 months of the year. Can't wait for Co!!!
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As someone who has ACTUALLY spent a signifcant time in Southern California, I can tell you that the majority of Boulevards do not look like portions of Wilshire and Santa Monica. All of Wilshire and Santa Monica are NOT framed with high-rise and high-density development as you claim. Try going to the San Fernando Valley. You will see very similar streetscapes to Phoenix, outside of downtown Glendale, Burbank. Keep in mind that most of the SFV is still part of the City of LA. 
