The prob with the Urban Cores is that they are too expensive (Phoenix: real estate, apartment complexes)

[joninaz]

As much as everyone raves about the emerging urban cores of downtown PHX, Scottsdale, Tempe, etc., it would seem to me that most people could not afford to live in the these places.

The Rep did a story today about downtown Tempe and how the condo towers wil make Mill a success. But how many folks can afford a $500K condo (one, maybe 2 bedrooms) there? Or similarly priced places in PHX, Old Town, etc?

If you take the area's avg. income, or avg. family income, it's not even close to qualifying. It might help if Aunt Martha left some funds in her will, but otherwise the costs versus income seems out of proportion.

Adding to this nutty scene is the prices versus other housing in the market. One would expect to pay a boatload for a little apartment in NYC or a condo in LA, San Fran, no matter the part of town. Everything is extreme. But in AZ, one can buy a 2,000 square foot house with a pool for half the price of a 900 SF condo just a few miles away. And I've seen monthly added fees in the hundreds per month for most of these developments.

Personally, I'd be interested in living in a more urban area, but it would cost twice the price for half the place. Meanwhile, part of the urban experience is living among students, musicians, teachers, cooks, crazy artists, etc. How are they gonna afford 4K/month?

I don't think that cities should be requiring developers to provide housing at all price points. But I do think they could do more to encourage development of mixed use places thaty are in line with area incomes. For example, if someone wants to build 8 lofts on a plot of land, give them some incentives for pricing some under 200K. Don't give them tax funds, but cities can waive permit fees, fastrack approvals, comp their water costs, etc.

A wealthy area is nice, but some of the most boring places in the world are neighborhoods rich in housing and not much else.

[Ponderosa]

Urban cores of the future such as PHX desires will not be populated by young people. The target demographic of the new condos etc is well-to-do retirees - rich boomers. There is no money to be made off of starving artists and students. And it's always about money.

[exit2lef]

The high prices are one of the reasons that many of planned high-rise condos in Downtown Phoenix and Downtown Tempe will not be built, will be scaled back, or will be redesigned as rentals. There are some bright spots, however. In Tempe, while Mill Avenue condo struggle to get off the ground, more modest apartment complexes are sprouting up along previously neglected areas of Apache Boulevard and nearby streets. These are not high rises, but they are buildings that directly address the street (no setbacks) and are within walking distance of light rail stations. It's this type of urban development that Phoenix needs more of. It's moderately priced, reflects an economy in which it may be better to rent than to buy, and it emphasizes density without being seduced by height for height's sake.

I'll also echo Ponderosa's point about the target clientele for Downtown high rises. I know one yuppie-type who lives in a new Downtown condo, but I also know two empty-nester couples who live in condos on Mill Avenue. They love having a maintenance-free lifestyle and being able to walk to restaurants and a light rail station. I've run into them pushing their grandchildren in strollers along Mill Avenue.

[JoePAz]

My wife and I love the idea of living "downtown" on one of those cool buildings and all. Then we realize that we are both in early 30's with a 2 year old and planning for a second child. Not even looking at the price place like that are tough to consider with kids. As for the price. Well with both of us working and no kids it may not be that bad, but you do pay a price for a "lifestyle".

[banger]

I think you are failing to see that high prices create their own exclusivity without having to state it. High prices keep the "Riff Raff" out.

Consider if you will, it is fun to go to the zoo and look at all of the exotic animals, you see them as beautiful and unique, BUT... you really don't want to live with them.


Without a doubt, graffiti, noise, odors, and homeless people are a fact in urban America. I can assure you though, when upper middle class goes home at night, it wants tranquility and a serene surrounding to "escape, the realities of life". This is the exact reason for security, cameras, doormen, and police.

Don't think for one moment, that i view this disapprovingly. You would be wrong, I love this life style. You should just recognize it for what it is.

VOYERISM !!!!

[sablebaby]

They have to overprice these condo developments just to keep them nice for long term. Price them under $200k and you'll see them go downhill real quick!

[TurcoLoco]

I hate to admit it but high prices keeps the riff-raff away. Cities/communities who desire to build that kind of an image will even put the profits in the back-burner for a while at least.

[hootie]

Overpriced condo's will work in Scottsdale and the Biltmore area. But high priced condos in ASU's backyard are a joke. Same goes for Phoenix. As it has always been pointed out, if people with money want a monthly payment 3 grand for 900sq ft and a view, they sure don't want crazies and homeless people right out their front door. NYC is NYC and SFO is SFO, so you deal with it. But why the hell would anybody need to pay 700g in tempe for a 2 bedroom condo when they could have a 2500 sq ft house in a quiet area, with a private pool with enough funds to pay people to give you a zero maintanaince lifestyle with money still leftover and only ten minutes away, AND you'd actually be closer to more restaurants and grocery stores.

[azjack]

The high-price exclusivity of built or unbuilt Tempe condos can not be artificially maintained. Absent lending bubble conditions, insufficient demand for such condos means lower prices and more abandoned ventures.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by TurcoLoco

I hate to admit it but high prices keeps the riff-raff away.

Absolutely! That's why "affordable" neighborhoods with single family homes usually attract families with children. Even the presence of a multitude of kids in an area has a way of lowering real estate values. This is especially true if it's in a neighborhood where vandalism is common ... and when there are lots of kids in an area, you take the risk of theft, vandalism, noise, and other annoyances. Sure, your house may be cheaper, but you pay the price in other ways.

Highrise condos usually attract more of an upscale crowd ... often the young professionals with no children. Even some retirees are considering urban living for the nearby amenities and the security. If people are willing to pay for this type of living, why deny it? There obviously has been more of a demand for it in the last few years, otherwise there wouldn't be Centerpoint, 44 Monroe, etc.

Also, while the cost of housing may be more expensive in the urban cores, you actually save money in the long term by not driving as much. With gas prices the way they area, this is a big savings. The $20K or $30K car, pickup, or SUV isn't needed in the centralized areas, which is another huge cost burden that some people wish to get rid of.