Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
quote miamiman: Secondly, I thought Congress just outlawed Mexican trucks traveling through our country? quote
Yes congress did temporarily, but Mexican trucks are not the only ones to use the CANAMEX highway. Even if the Mexican trucks were banned permanantly the American trucks pick up the produce and other goods transfered from them and will travel the highway to where ever their destination is to the north.
And yes Mike, the residents were told of the proposed freeway many years ago. The has been, in the past, a lot of publicity over this. But I imagine many realtors, developers etal told prospective buyers that the freeway is a moot situation. And if they call it a Parkway, like others mentioned about the Squaw Peak Parkway, once it's in place it will be expanded later as needed since the government agencies own the right of way and will at taxpayers expense tear it up and expand on it regardless of residents opinions. That's how the government works.
You can't compare it to the 51. This "Parkway" has a series of u-turns every 1/8 of a mile. You can't expand upon that like you can with a straight freeway like the 51. It's a different situation. In short, a freeway will never get done. The government is not going to relocate 250-500 homes to pay for the cost of building this thing. They should have done it a long time ago before these homes went up. Sheer stupidity on the part of ADOT
The difference between this and the 51 was that the 51 was started as a City of Phoenix project, although I believe it WAS built to freeway-standards - and then transferred to ADOT when they started working on the regional freeway system.
What is the need for building this new freeway skirting around Ahwatukee?
If automobiles or truckers heading east from California want to bypass Phoenix, they can already do so via AZ-85 (which is already in parts and will eventually become a full blown 4 lane divided highway) and I-8. Additionally when it comes to normal 45 mph surface streets (whether you call it "parkway" or not), there's already 51st Ave which turns into Beltline Rd, skirting through the Indian Reservation.
The proposed allignment for this stretch of the 202 will connect to I-10 too far west of downtown to be a viable option for Ahwatukee or East Valley residents trying to get to downtown/ Central Phoenix. But at the same time, it is not planned to hook into the existing 101/I-10 interchange-- the most logical place if you were to build a freeway. This means it would create a new bottleneck along I-10 in the west valley (which is already severely backed up) between the current 101 and proposed 202 interchanges.
This proposed freeway would not solve weekday commuter traffic congestion of west valley residents trying to get to jobs in downtown & central Phoenix, Tempe, or Scottsdale (ie-- the major employment centers). About the only thing it would be useful for would be commuting from the west valley to south Chandler.
Since this freeway would be sandwiched in between existing development and an Indian reservation, there is essentially no new opportunity for future development along its proposed path.
Of all the possible freeways that could be built in metro Phoenix, this is probably the most unnecessary I can think of. What about converting Grand Ave/ US 60 into a full blown limited access freeway, which would facilitate traffic from the northwest valley into central Phoenix? What about building a freeway parallel to I-10 in the west valley, several miles away, to act as a reliever? (for example, in LA, you have the 210, 10, and 60 all heading the same east-west direction through the San Gabriel Valley and Inland Empire). What about building a reliever to I-17 heading from Phoenix to northern Arizona? Or building a parkway/beltway around Tucson (never going to happen, but their needs are even more accute than Phoenix)?
Or existing freeways that severely need widening projects? Such as I-10 through the west valley, I-10 between Phoenix and Tucson, I-17 through Phoenix and north of Phoenix.
The government is not going to relocate 250-500 homes to pay for the cost of building this thing. They should have done it a long time ago before these homes went up. Sheer stupidity on the part of ADOT
Sheer stupidity on the part of ADOT - I agree AZRiverFan, and of course greed on part of developers and realtors played a part in it too when they built those 250 to 500 homes. You can add incompetence in how ADOT managed the growth we've experienced in the Phoenix area in the last 15 years.
On ADOT's "sheer stupidity", I can name other examples of other projects that keep getting redone, like the US 60 expansion, they added lanes in the past, most recently about 10 years ago, then they're back on another expansion project! The north section of the 101 where it intersects with I-17, that was completed less than 10 years ago if I remember correctly, now they're at it again, making additions, why didn't they do this in the first place and save us motorists a lot of trouble, and a lot of tax-payer Dollars! I-17 north of the 101, it was 2 lanes in each direction up until just last year. Anthem was built in the mid 1990's, and many new sub-divisions were built in Carefree not too long ago, but in the last 14 years, the folks at ADOT never thought that one day I-17 will need extra lanes to accomodate the extra traffic into, and out of Phoenix to Anthem and Carefree.
I can't imagine the frustration Anthem and Carefree residents, had to have experienced being stuck in big traffic jams on I-17 going into, and out of Phoenix, due to the incompetence of ADOT officials, until they finally decided to add extra lanes on that stretch.
I wouldn't be too surprised if they did another I-17 expansion project on the same stretch, not long after finishing the current one.
What about building a freeway parallel to I-10 in the west valley, several miles away, to act as a reliever? (for example, in LA, you have the 210, 10, and 60 all heading the same east-west direction through the San Gabriel Valley and Inland Empire). What about building a reliever to I-17 heading from Phoenix to northern Arizona? Or building a parkway/beltway around Tucson (never going to happen, but their needs are even more accute than Phoenix)?
Or existing freeways that severely need widening projects? Such as I-10 through the west valley, I-10 between Phoenix and Tucson, I-17 through Phoenix and north of Phoenix.
Thoughts?
An I-10 reliever is planned in the southwest part of town. I think it's known as the 810.
There is long-term talk of double-decking I-17 and also a proposal to build a secondary freeway running parallel to I-10 at the Broadway Curve.
All of these are planned in addition to the 202 South Mountain Freeway, not necessarily in place of it. Of course, they were all based on assumptions of population and traffic during the boom years. It remains to be seen if they'll still be accurate if Phoenix's growth continues to be slow and gas prices go back up into $4 territory.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about the 202 South Mountain. I have no sympathy for homeowners who neglected to read their disclosures. At the same time, I'm opposed to any freeway design that encroaches even a millimeter on South Mountain Park, one of Phoenix's crown jewels. The current design would require blasting in the park's southwestern corner.
The proposed allignment for this stretch of the 202 will connect to I-10 too far west of downtown to be a viable option for Ahwatukee or East Valley residents trying to get to downtown/ Central Phoenix.
Much of Ahwautukee is already far west so it would enable them to get to downtown faster. And by doing this it clears traffic on I-10 going north for people who proximal to I-10. In addition, it would enable residents in the south valley easy access to I-10 when commuting to the west valley or Los Angelas.
Quote:
But at the same time, it is not planned to hook into the existing 101/I-10 interchange-- the most logical place if you were to build a freeway. This means it would create a new bottleneck along I-10 in the west valley (which is already severely backed up) between the current 101 and proposed 202 interchanges.
It is backed up because there is construction on I-10 west to add another lane.
Quote:
This proposed freeway would not solve weekday commuter traffic congestion of west valley residents trying to get to jobs in downtown & central Phoenix, Tempe, or Scottsdale (ie-- the major employment centers). About the only thing it would be useful for would be commuting from the west valley to south Chandler.
Tempe is big. South Tempe is essentially Chandler and Ahwautukee and that area has a lot of jobs. Many jobs are in South Chandler such as Intel and Verizon.
Quote:
Since this freeway would be sandwiched in between existing development and an Indian reservation, there is essentially no new opportunity for future development along its proposed path.
That entire route is not occupied by Indian reservation. There would be significant areas still left for development.
Quote:
Of all the possible freeways that could be built in metro Phoenix, this is probably the most unnecessary I can think of. What about converting Grand Ave/ US 60 into a full blown limited access freeway, which would facilitate traffic from the northwest valley into central Phoenix?
Grand Ave/US 60 is only really served by people in Suprise, Sun City and Sun City West. There are far more people and jobs in Ahwautukee, Chandler and South Tempe.
Quote:
Or existing freeways that severely need widening projects? Such as I-10 through the west valley, I-10 between Phoenix and Tucson, I-17 through Phoenix and north of Phoenix.
Thoughts?
I agree that widening the freeway between Phoenix and Tucson on the I-10 is needed.
On ADOT's "sheer stupidity", I can name other examples of other projects that keep getting redone, like the US 60 expansion, they added lanes in the past, most recently about 10 years ago, then they're back on another expansion project! The north section of the 101 where it intersects with I-17, that was completed less than 10 years ago if I remember correctly, now they're at it again, making additions, why didn't they do this in the first place and save us motorists a lot of trouble, and a lot of tax-payer Dollars! I-17 north of the 101, it was 2 lanes in each direction up until just last year. Anthem was built in the mid 1990's, and many new sub-divisions were built in Carefree not too long ago, but in the last 14 years, the folks at ADOT never thought that one day I-17 will need extra lanes to accomodate the extra traffic into, and out of Phoenix to Anthem and Carefree.
I agree, Mike. ADOT is known for incompetence and lame excuses! I remember in the '90s when they were building the 51 freeway northward, they were at least a year behind in completing the expansion. The winter of 1997-1998 happened to be rainy, and ADOT made the excuse that the wet weather delayed their progress. Did anybody ever wonder how they built freeways in Seattle, Portland, Miami, or Atlanta where it rains five to ten times as much as it does in Phoenix??? Or worse, how about the snow/ice regions? How do their transportation departments deal with the inclement weather?!
()
As I mentioned before, ADOT was audited in the early '90s, and the audit revealed that they grossly mis managed the allocated funds for the freeway projects. It was around that time when ADOT built fancy boardrooms with taxpayer money ... yet, they were claiming that they didn't have enough money to complete the freeways that were promised when they were approved by the voters in 1985.
Has anybody driven on the freeways at night, and noticed that some sections are completely pitch black ... or some of the overhead lamps have only one light working? That's ADOT cutting the juice to supposedly cut costs. Brilliant!!! They pay the cost to INSTALL the lights, but then don't use them ... and jeopardize people's safety by having dark freeway sections.
I wouldn't mind if ADOT was completely shut down, and replaced by private contracting firms. Heck, we could have toll roads built in a expedited manner, and probably maintained better than ADOT. There was even talk about the proposed South Mountain Freeway becoming a tollway ... but too many NIMBYs were opposed to that idea. (Is anybody surprised???)
Remember when they put a "Parkway" right down the center of established Phoenix neighborhoods? It didn't take long for the trees and grassy medians to disappear, the speed to rise and the Parkway be extended as the 51!!
The Park and the Mountain need to be left alone and the people who moved South knew they would have traffic and chose traffic over living on infill in Phoenix. They also moved there for cheaper newer homes. When will we learn to include the cost of utilities and new roads in the home prices!! I do not want Phoenix to go the way of Detroit.
Remember when they put a "Parkway" right down the center of established Phoenix neighborhoods? It didn't take long for the trees and grassy medians to disappear, the speed to rise and the Parkway be extended as the 51!!
The Park and the Mountain need to be left alone and the people who moved South knew they would have traffic and chose traffic over living on infill in Phoenix. They also moved there for cheaper newer homes. When will we learn to include the cost of utilities and new roads in the home prices!! I do not want Phoenix to go the way of Detroit.
Did you notice that this thread is almost three years old (since the last post before yours)?
Remember when they put a "Parkway" right down the center of established Phoenix neighborhoods? It didn't take long for the trees and grassy medians to disappear, the speed to rise and the Parkway be extended as the 51!!
The 51 is widely regarded as a success but I agree, the idea that it would be limited to a parkway would never happen. It would eventually turn into a major freeway
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
)
Parkway hahahah!
