What's going on with health care? (buy, schools, taxes)
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Thanks for stating the obvious! The concept of insurance is that many pay into the plan on an assumption that only a sub-set 'consume'. Paying cash out of pocket for a 3-year cancer battle just might be a bit more than anyone other than Donald Trump can afford. Even he'd need to sell a house or two to pay for it.
Monstrosity? Is requiring healthcare companies to stop denying insurance due to pre-existing conditions a monstrosity? Is trying to cover some of the vast numer of people currently without coverage a monstrosity? I grew up in UK and my mom - 82 years old - is still there and happily using the 'socialised' medicine. She's 82 and has a variety of issues. She just had some bladder procedure last week.
What boggles my mind is that so many Americans have strong opinions about healthcare in various European countries, based on silly scare stories propogated by Faux News and others. What people need to focus on is 'outcomes' - life expectancy, success rates, etc.
My girlfriend has a great job and great insurance; she had breast cancer and was well looked after. Her sister did not have a job (and no insurance), and also had breast cancer. Due to lack of checkups/etc, her cancer was caught much later. After a big struggle she died, but not before costing various charities and the state a lot more than my girlfriend's procedures. Early detection was the key - free, regular checkups caught it early (stage 1) and they were able to operate and remove it, while her sister's was not caught until stage 3 at which point it was much more complex and costly.
There is much to love about America. It's healthcare system is not one of them.
I had to read your post twice to fully understand it. After reading it, I am in total agreement with you. There are many others here that would also agree. The problem is we have way too many right-wing nuts (Republicans) that keep blocking any kind of reform, and then only to protect the insurance company profits!!! They do not care who live or who dies unfortunately.
Think that might be the difference? Cosmetic surgery is elective. Try walking away with cancer, or diabetes, or heart disease. Health care is legalized extortion.
Food is a necessity of life, too. But we don't have "food insurance" sponsored by our employers and the government. Yet food prices stay in line with inflation for the most part.
Food is a competitive market. Health care isn't.
When you have a lack of competition (be it for profit or non-profit), you get the legalized extortion you're talking about.
Why is it that people are now having all kinds of elective surgeries in 3rd world countries for a fraction of the cost of what it would be in the US? Sure, the labor costs are lower. But they are offset somewhat by travel and accommodations costs. The biggest reason why people can save money getting health care in other countries is more efficient delivery, which is brought about by real competition and no 3rd party middlemen (insurance companies, the government, employers) to interfere.
I might add that before World War 2, we did not spend all the much on health care, yet our overall life expectancy improved greatly in the 1st half of the 20th centruy. As soon as the middlemen started getting involved, costs started to eat up larger and larger shares of our income.
Finally, if people saw the FULL cost of their unhealthy lifestyles, I suspect a good number would change their ways.
Oh this final issue, we are simply going to have to admit that no matter what kind of health care system we have or who pays for it, we MUST figure out what to do about our unhealthy lifestyle in America, especially obesity. If we don't, we're going to go broke trying to pay for it all.
80% of heart disease is completely peventable
So is 93% of Type 2 diabetes
...and 36% of cancer.....It's all about eating real food instead of processed crap and not smoking and using drugs & excess alcohol.
Actually neither private or gov insurance has the best interest of the actual PEOPLE in mind: the private insurance companies are GREEDY AS GREEDY GETS and the Gov could care less! I have 3 kids and each has it's own pediatrician in a different part of town because of this stupid insurance issue! When I lived in Europe I had the same pediatrician from the day I was born all the way to 18y/old.........
It is VERY DISAPPOINTING to say the least that a country that "poses" so advanced CANNOT take care of it's own citizens and provide options that everyone at every salary level can afford. A person is a person I don't care if they are lawyers or maids, they all get sick with the same cancers for example and while one can treat it the other cannot THAT MY FRIENDS is HORRIBLE!
I personally don't consider a country "successful" or "advanced" if it cannot care for it's citizens FIRST! I call it a MAJOR FAILURE!
Food is a necessity of life, too. But we don't have "food insurance" sponsored by our employers and the government. Yet food prices stay in line with inflation for the most part.
Food is a competitive market. Health care isn't.
Well, that argument falls down because everyone needs food every day, while only a relatively small sub-set (the sick) need healthcare, at least for most of thier lives.
There are certain events in our society that we have decided are best covered by insurance - fire, auto accidents, robbery, health problems, etc. The principle is that the events are huge in cost, and only affect a small number of people (randomly without prior knowledge), and therefore it is in everyone's interest to pay into a 'pool' to cover the few that suffer the loss. All we are discussing in the healthcare debate is how to best administer and deliver this system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger
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Oh this final issue, we are simply going to have to admit that no matter what kind of health care system we have or who pays for it, we MUST figure out what to do about our unhealthy lifestyle in America, especially obesity. If we don't, we're going to go broke trying to pay for it all.
80% of heart disease is completely peventable
So is 93% of Type 2 diabetes
...and 36% of cancer.....It's all about eating real food instead of processed crap and not smoking and using drugs & excess alcohol.
On this subject I'm in total agreement with you; I wish there was a way to increase the premiums of fat people who stuff their face, or idiots who smoke knowing full well the risks of cancer. However, that kind of discrimination is not likely to be possible.
I had to read your post twice to fully understand it. After reading it, I am in total agreement with you. There are many others here that would also agree. The problem is we have way too many right-wing nuts (Republicans) that keep blocking any kind of reform, and then only to protect the insurance company profits!!! They do not care who live or who dies unfortunately.
That is what the Democrats would have you believe but when the Republicans provide solid ideas like paying for doctor visits from a health savings plan with insurance only for catastrophes, Democrats immediately shoot it down. A plan like that would significantly reduce your premiums and allow people to pay for visits a la carte just like going to Wal-Mart or any other store and seeing the service and the cost next to it. And people are already doing this and liking it. Why do you think urgent cares have gotten so popular and even the doctors like it because $90 is $90 unlike billing the insurance company $200 and getting reimbursed $60 or whatever they feel like paying. People without health insurance would rather go uninsured and then go to an urgent care or a Minute Clinic in CVS Pharmacy and pay $90 for a visit rather than pay $5000 per year in insurance premiums. The only reason most of us need insurance is if a catastrophe happens. Otherwise, how often do you go to the doctor...once...maybe twice a year if you are healthy? Those who are uninsured can't afford the preimums and take a risk by having no catastrophe insurance and then paying out of pocket to the urgent care. So you are already doing that.
Another thing the Democrats routinely ignore are measures for tort (law suit) reform. A big reason doctors and hospitals practice defensive medicine or "cover my a$#@" medicine is because of the threat of law suits. What people outside of medicine don't see is that lawyers will come after you if anything bad happens even if the proper protocol was followed. It's a money maker for lawyers. Just look at these TV commericals from lawyers advertising and trying to get you to sue even if there is nothing wrong with you. Lawyers literally chase ambulances and roam the hospitals. They will ask if you are someone taking a common medication to try and get a class action lawsuit going. If you guys live in Phoenix, you know what I'm talking about when accident and DUI attorneys like Phillip and Associates are trying to get into the medical malpractice business. There is a reason they are doing that! President Obama was asked about measures to curb tort reform and thus far he has done nothing about it. The reason is because the trial lawyers association is THE largest supporter and campaign contributor to the Democrats.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 02-28-2010 at 02:32 AM..
That is what the Democrats would have you believe but when the Republicans provide solid ideas like paying for doctor visits from a health savings plan with insurance only for catastrophes, Democrats immediately shoot it down. A plan like that would significantly reduce your premiums and allow people to pay for visits a la carte just like going to Wal-Mart or any other store and seeing the service and the cost next to it. And people are already doing this and liking it. Why do you think urgent cares have gotten so popular and even the doctors like it because $90 is $90 unlike billing the insurance company $200 and getting reimbursed $60 or whatever they feel like paying. People without health insurance would rather go uninsured and then go to an urgent care or a Minute Clinic in CVS Pharmacy and pay $90 for a visit rather than pay $5000 per year in insurance premiums. The only reason most of us need insurance is if a catastrophe happens. Otherwise, how often do you go to the doctor...once...maybe twice a year if you are healthy? Those who are uninsured can't afford the preimums and take a risk by having no catastrophe insurance and then paying out of pocket to the urgent care. So you are already doing that.
Another thing the Democrats routinely ignore are measures for tort (law suit) reform. A big reason doctors and hospitals practice defensive medicine or "cover my a$#@" medicine is because of the threat of law suits. What people outside of medicine don't see is that lawyers will come after you if anything bad happens even if the proper protocol was followed. It's a money maker for lawyers. Just look at these TV commericals from lawyers advertising and trying to get you to sue even if there is nothing wrong with you. Lawyers literally chase ambulances and roam the hospitals. They will ask if you are someone taking a common medication to try and get a class action lawsuit going. If you guys live in Phoenix, you know what I'm talking about when accident and DUI attorneys like Phillip and Associates are trying to get into the medical malpractice business. There is a reason they are doing that! President Obama was asked about measures to curb tort reform and thus far he has done nothing about it. The reason is because the trial lawyers association is THE largest supporter and campaign contributor to the Democrats.
Americans should have the same kind of coverage Germans, British, Canadian, Japanese, Chinese, every other first world nation has had for decades. People shouldn't even have to think about this crap. Get sick, go to the dr. NO BILLS! NO WORRIES! NO LINK TO EMPLOYMENT! If one sat up nights for months trying to think of a dumb way to provide health care, he would not conjure a system as ridiculous as one based on where one works like ours.
Access to health care should not be a job benefit. Vacations, company car, key to the executive rest room, yes. But health care? Change a job, change a doctor. Lose a job, lose health care. Get a raise, lose it to insurance deductions. Employer has a bad year, you lose all or part of your benefits. What a stupid, stupid system. The premise is so absurd that we can't fix it with a patch. We need to start over by separating employment and health care in the national psyche. I have no hope whatsoever that will happen. It would be easy to say we deserve what we have because we vote for the fools etc, but no people deserve the mess we have made of health care access in our country.
Honestly, anyone who has ever lived in another prosperous country and been under their health care system like I have would be in utter disbelief at how effed-up the US is in this area.
Last edited by Ponderosa; 02-28-2010 at 07:56 AM..
Americans should have the same kind of coverage Germans, British, Canadian, Japanese, Chinese, every other first world nation has had for decades. People shouldn't even have to think about this crap. Get sick, go to the dr. NO BILLS! NO WORRIES! NO LINK TO EMPLOYMENT! If one sat up nights for months trying to think of a dumb way to provide health care, he would not conjure a system as ridiculous as one based on where one works like ours.
Access to health care should not be a job benefit. Vacations, company car, key to the executive rest room, yes. But health care? Change a job, change a doctor. Lose a job, lose health care. Get a raise, lose it to insurance deductions. Employer has a bad year, you lose all or part of your benefits. What a stupid, stupid system. The premise is so absurd that we can't fix it with a patch. We need to start over by separating employment and health care in the national psyche. I have no hope whatsoever that will happen. It would be easy to say we deserve what we have because we vote for the fools etc, but no people deserve the mess we have made of health care access in our country.
Honestly, anyone who has ever lived in another prosperous country and been under their health care system like I have would be in utter disbelief at how effed-up the US is in this area.
If America had the same coverage as British, Japanese, & Chinese, we'd also have to wait much longer for a needed procedure and a doctor visit. It is already a few weeks or even months to see some specialists. With universal health care, it will be months to see a primary! And you will see your doctor for 1 minute instead of 10minutes that you enjoy now.
Quantity and quality usually have an inverse relationship. And seeing so many patients in US is impossible with all the documentation mandates that doctors' offices have to go through. Come 21% medicare cut, we'll add to the growing list of physicians dropping medicare and increase in days waiting for medicare patients. This is the beginning of the end. Welcome to socialized medicine.
If America had the same coverage as British, Japanese, & Chinese, we'd also have to wait much longer for a needed procedure and a doctor visit. It is already a few weeks or even months to see some specialists. With universal health care, it will be months to see a primary! And you will see your doctor for 1 minute instead of 10minutes that you enjoy now.
Quantity and quality usually have an inverse relationship. And seeing so many patients in US is impossible with all the documentation mandates that doctors' offices have to go through. Come 21% medicare cut, we'll add to the growing list of physicians dropping medicare and increase in days waiting for medicare patients. This is the beginning of the end. Welcome to socialized medicine.
YES! Bring it on! While I think that is the ultimate destination and answer, my present complaint is on employer based insurance. Being charitable, this is an idiotic, illogical way of providing health coverage that burdens workers and employers alike.
I don't see any hope for affordable health care. Ever. All I see are corrupt politicians on all sides, playing us off on each other(with faux ideological arguments and scare tactics), while they take the money and run. None of them have any real values, aside from greed. Sociopaths, the lot of them. Just look at the public option. Obama, the so-called socialist didn't even put up a fight for it...not even before Brown won in MA. Why? Because insurance companies fund his campaign, and the campaigns of democrats in Congress. The insurance companies' only goal with Obama is to try to make insurance mandated, so they can suck money from even more people. (oh yeah, and let's not forget that the difference between Obama's and Hillary's healthcare plans in the primaries was supposedly that Obama would not have any mandates. ha...so much for that.). The hilarious thing is, most of my conservatives friends think he's the next Che Guevara, when the truth is, he's a corporate shill just like the rest. Similiar to Bush in that regard.
Now to the Republican side...I like the idea of tort reform. But do you really think that the Republican politicans are any less susceptible to corruption than Democrats? If/when a Republican gets back into the Oval Office, there may be talk of tort reform, but then they will find the lawyers associations offering them just as much money as they currently do to Obama and Co. How soon Republicans forget...remember how ideologically pure Republican politicians were when it came to immigration reform? Playing footsie with Senator Kennedy? Were they listening to their Republican constituents, or were they listening to the businesses that enjoy cheap labor? And yet Republicans supported John McCain after this betrayal. Unbelievable.
And I know libertarians like to think they're immune, but it seems like the taste for money and power in our culture is like blood to vampires. Once libertarianism gains some traction (enough elected officials), corporations will be filling their coffers with cash just like with our current parties. I don't know what the solutions are, but I do believe at the grunt level we need to stop fighting each other and realize that the powers that be are playing divide and conquer. I don't think we are lacking in great ideas...doctors, patients, health care professionals know ways of cutting costs. But even if we had 99 % agreement that, for example, we needed tort reform it still wouldn't happen because after these guys get voted out of office for voting against the will of constituents, they simply become high-payed lobbyists on the Hill...so it's not really punishment. Just look at Evan Byah...dude's wife probably made so much money lobbying for Big Pharma that he thought he might as well take a swig from the trough, too. Why bother with stupid little conventions like elections and complaints from constituents?!!
Anyhow, Sorry for the gloom and rambling...must be the rain!
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They do not care who live or who dies unfortunately.
Cosmetic surgery is elective. Try walking away with cancer, or diabetes, or heart disease. Health care is legalized extortion.
