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My post was not directed toward you. The OGMI comparison of Boston vs. Phoenix is merely an example, but I'm confident that a composite analysis of total chain presence would not show Phoenix significantly more chain-saturated than most of the country. I'm sorry you've had trouble finding good indie restaurants in your neighborhood, but they're out there in abundance, especially in established parts of the metro area.
Of course abundance is a completely relative term.
The only 2 places out of the entire city where I would label unique shops and restaurants are in "abundance" would be Mill Ave and Central Phx. The other 80% of the city is in my opinion heavily saturated with chains over long stretches.
I'm curious what part of town do you actually live in where you encounter such places in abundance?
Of course abundance is a completely relative term.
The only 2 places out of the entire city where I would label unique shops and restaurants are in "abundance" would be Mill Ave and Central Phx. The other 80% of the city is in my opinion heavily saturated with chains over long stretches.
I'm curious what part of town do you actually live in where you encounter such places in abundance?
I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really curious.
I live near Piestewa Peak and the Biltmore Area. I spend most of my time in Central Phoenix and Tempe, the best parts of the metro area IMO, but I can think of favorite indie places from Bell Road to west Mesa to Gilbert to north Scottsdale. Inside the 101 & the 202, they're abundant. It's only outside those loop freeways in the most newly developed fringe areas that chains are really the only choice. I'd like to recommend some sites for you to use in discovering more interesting places, but the current moderator here has some very strict ideas of what counts as a "competing site," so I won't bother to post information that will only be deleted later. Sorry I can't be of more help, but do some Googling. The information is out there, as are many worthwhile places eager for your business.
Silverbear, I have to say I like your educated intelligent responses, but I'm also one for a good debate, so dont let my posts irritate, its just a different perspective. I still uphold that we are likely to hold the title of the most bland corporate major city in the US, maybe even the world.
I think you are most definitely in an area that has alot more unique experiences, as that part is central Phoenix. But there is a huge city out there, the other 80% that you do NOT have to deal with or even consider. Its easy to throw out remarks that there is an abundance of indie things everywhere just waiting to be discovered, when you yourself dont even have to look much further than your front porch.
Whenever anyone posts in here about where to go for fun, unusual, hip areas, there is a very skimpy assortment. The usual Mill, Downtown Scottsdale, or Biltmore. And even those choices are below par for a city this large.
I am quite bored right now, so I did a little research on my own. We can call my study the WFWM indicator. (Wild for Wal-mart)
In Boston, there are 9 Walmarts even when you count the burbs, Phoenix has somewhere over 72, and I skipped some red dots that I wasnt sure about. I couldnt use their site because in every zip code I could type in the number of stores exceeded the 20 maximum limit.
Google "walmart phoenix", and the whole city is lit up like a bright red blob. Now take the rest of the space and squeeze in a neighboring Target, Lowes and Home Depot, Walgreens and all the usual suspects that hang out together in these plazas. The ratio of concentrated local flair type establishments is confined to few small areas, while the rest of the city is out of control with this type of growth.
I'm not trying to win an argument here, but just help you see that I'm not just a Phoenix basher. You are confident that every city is like this, but I'm confident there are places that are NOT like this. I'm sure there are places that consider long term effects, and not just looking for a quick boost to the city coffers at the expense of quality of life. I'm extremely disappointed in the type of growth that Phoenix promotes. From your perspective, its easy to isolate yourself in the core and say its great and just label people that gripe about Phoenix as bashers.
However, I'm not a miserable person and dont have a need to just rip on Phoenix for fun. I really believe they did a terrible job of creating a balanced city. With such a mega population base as the 5th largest city, there had to be a million better ways to develop this and make it thrive, but instead we are sitting in the gutter. That speaks volumes to me, and its why I continue to make sure people know they are gonna need a lot more than sunshine to be happy here.
Silverbear, I have to say I like your educated intelligent responses, but I'm also one for a good debate, so dont let my posts irritate, its just a different perspective. I still uphold that we are likely to hold the title of the most bland corporate major city in the US, maybe even the world.
I think you are most definitely in an area that has alot more unique experiences, as that part is central Phoenix. But there is a huge city out there, the other 80% that you do NOT have to deal with or even consider. Its easy to throw out remarks that there is an abundance of indie things everywhere just waiting to be discovered, when you yourself dont even have to look much further than your front porch.
Whenever anyone posts in here about where to go for fun, unusual, hip areas, there is a very skimpy assortment. The usual Mill, Downtown Scottsdale, or Biltmore. And even those choices are below par for a city this large.
I am quite bored right now, so I did a little research on my own. We can call my study the WFWM indicator. (Wild for Wal-mart)
In Boston, there are 9 Walmarts even when you count the burbs, Phoenix has somewhere over 72, and I skipped some red dots that I wasnt sure about. I couldnt use their site because in every zip code I could type in the number of stores exceeded the 20 maximum limit.
Google "walmart phoenix", and the whole city is lit up like a bright red blob. Now take the rest of the space and squeeze in a neighboring Target, Lowes and Home Depot, Walgreens and all the usual suspects that hang out together in these plazas. The ratio of concentrated local flair type establishments is confined to few small areas, while the rest of the city is out of control with this type of growth.
I'm not trying to win an argument here, but just help you see that I'm not just a Phoenix basher. You are confident that every city is like this, but I'm confident there are places that are NOT like this. I'm sure there are places that consider long term effects, and not just a quick boost to the city coffers at the expense of quality of life. I'm extremely disappointed in the type of growth that Phoenix promotes. From your perspective, its easy to isolate yourself in the core and say its great and just label people that gripe about Phoenix as bashers.
However, I'm not a miserable person and dont have a need to just rip on Phoenix for fun. I really believe they did a terrible job of creating a balanced city. With such a mega population base as the 5th largest city, there had to be a million better ways to develop this and make it thrive, but instead we are sitting in the gutter. That speaks volumes to me, and its why I continue to make sure people know they are gonna need a lot more than sunshine to be happy here.
In any metro area, there are portions that are interesting and parts that are ordinary. That's not at all unique to Phoenix. Nevertheless, I went out of my way in my prior response to talk about other parts of town in which there are interesting indie businesses.
Your Wal-mart stats seem incorrect to me. Wal-mart's store finder automatically returns the 20 nearest stores for any zip code. Whether I type in 02109 (DT Boston) or 85004 (DT Phoenix), I get 20 stores in a ring throughout the surrounding metro area. It would take a lot more detailed analysis than I have time for to determine which metro area has more Wal-mart stores per capita, but ultimately it would be only one more example, rather than a broad conclusion, no matter what the results showed.
I have not previously labeled you specifically as a Phoenix basher, but when you make exaggerated and unjustified statements like "most bland corporate major city in the US" and "sitting in the gutter," it's hard to conclude otherwise. If you truly believe that there are "a million better ways to develop this and make it thrive," then stop complaining and explore, share, and cultivate the good in our community.
In any metro area, there are portions that are interesting and parts that are ordinary. That's not at all unique to Phoenix. Nevertheless, I went out of my way in my prior response to talk about other parts of town in which there are interesting indie businesses.
Your Wal-mart stats seem incorrect to me. Wal-mart's store finder automatically returns the 20 nearest stores for any zip code. Whether I type in 02109 (DT Boston) or 85004 (DT Phoenix), I get 20 stores in a ring throughout the surrounding metro area. It would take a lot more detailed analysis than I have time for to determine which metro area has more Wal-mart stores per capita, but ultimately it would be only one more example, rather than a broad conclusion, no matter what the results showed.
I have not previously labeled you specifically as a Phoenix basher, but when you make exaggerated and unjustified statements like "most bland corporate major city in the US" and "sitting in the gutter," it's hard to conclude otherwise. If you truly believe that there are "a million better ways to develop this and make it thrive," then stop complaining and explore, share, and cultivate the good in our community.
Its OK about the Walmart thing. Its useless to continue the debate. I zoomed out from google and counted the red dots that identified walmart stores in both places. I know how to count red dots on a white screen... I promise. I even think my count of 72 is low because I actually skipped some of the dots that seemed way too close, and true enough, I did it quickly and maybe did something wrong in Boston. But seriously this doesnt matter anymore than your OGMI. Its just an example of how stats can make you think anything you want.
We ARE economically, "in the gutter". Thats a fact, not a bash. Other cities had their dip and are now chugging back along. Some cities even in AZ, such as Sierra Vista, didnt get greedy and overbuild during good times and had hardly any type of real estate crash.
Unfortunately, my complaints are falling on deaf ears I realize. I have no pull in city planning and whats done is done. Its not like we can just bulldoze the place and start over. I said in other posts, why not reserve space in new neighborhoods for future mass transit? Why not build smaller walkable areas in more places than just one or two spots in a city SO large? Why wasnt that considered before it went this far? I see almost no evidence of anything I would call "planning". It seems like a bunch of nimrods just rubber stamp approved whatever was presented to them.
Anyway, its really not about Walmart or Olive Garden, they have a right to be here too, its a capitalist society and survival of the fittest. But on the other hand, when no one is fit to survive other than huge corporations, it becomes a monotonous existence. And this type of lifestyle is far more common in Phoenix than what is going on in the Biltmore.
Its OK about the Walmart thing. Its useless to continue the debate. I zoomed out from google and counted the red dots that identified walmart stores. I know how to count red dots on a white screen... I promise. I even think my count of 72 is low because I actually skipped some of the dots that seemed way too close. But seriously this doesnt matter anymore than your OGMI. Its just an example of how stats can make you think anything you want.
We ARE economically, "in the gutter". Thats a fact, not a bash. Other cities had their dip and are now chugging back along. Some cities even in AZ, such as Sierra Vista, didnt get greedy and overbuild during good times and had hardly any type of real estate crash.
Unfortunately, my complaints are falling on deaf ears I realize. I have no pull in city planning and whats done is done. Its not like we can just bulldoze the place and start over. I said in other posts, why not reserve space in new neighborhoods for future mass transit? Why wasnt that considered before it went this far? Why not build smaller walkable areas in more places than just one or two spots in a city SO large? I could even get a petition of everyone in my neighborhood that says they want these things too, but when ground breaks, we will be even 5 minutes closer to a new Walmart, and also get maybe 5 new bank branches and 3 pharmacies.
Anyway, its really not about Walmart or Olive Garden, they have a right to be here too, its a capitalist society and survival of the fittest. But on the other hand, when no one is fit to survive other than huge corporations, it becomes a monotonous existence. And this type of lifestyle is far more common in Phoenix than what is going on in the Biltmore.
Phoenix is currently revising its general plan to guide development until 2050. There have been citizen forums held all over town. I went to one. Did you? You've previously indicated you didn't even know when light rail service began. If you really valued mass transit, you would have been keeping track of the project and cheering it on. Unfortunately, it seems like you are in a state of civic disengagement -- complaining from behind a keyboard rather being part of a community. How is that helpful to anyone?
Phoenix is currently revising its general plan to guide development until 2050. There have been citizen forums held all over town. I went to one. Did you? You've previously indicated you didn't even know when light rail service began. If you really valued mass transit, you would have been keeping track of the project and cheering it on. Unfortunately, it seems like you are in a state of civic disengagement -- complaining from behind a keyboard rather being part of a community. How is that helpful to anyone?
I have not been to any citizen forum and became jaded about Phoenix along time ago. I am not sure when you moved here, but there was about 2 or 3 other mass transit propositions that got voted down by a landslide. I got the feeling that I was always in the minority by supporting mass transit as well as other progressive ideas. The things that I thought would enhance living here are the same things the majority fought to keep away. As far as light rail, I kept an "I'll believe it when I see it" type attitude. I had no reason to believe this particular time was going to be successful.
When I realized light rail was actually up and running, I decided to go check it out. I will admit, I was pleasantly surprised, and I really felt like I lived in a city as opposed to a giant suburb for the first time in my entire life here. Props to Phoenix for jumping on the bandwagon MUCH MUCH later than it should have. This type of project could have started 20 years ago and would have been much further along if they did. Why was it suddenly OK to do it now, but not then? These are the things I don't get. Nothing new really sits along the route, so what was the 20 year delay for? Too busy building track housing and Walmarts?
I understand my complaining from behind a keyboard doesnt help anyone but me. Sometimes its nice to know how others perceive the same city, even if they blatantly disagree. I have no grand delusions that I can start a revolution on the internet, or even at a city forum meeting for that matter.
At this point, I am not loyal to Phoenix because 2050 is going to be a little too late for me. I'll eventually find a place that has already followed a smart growth plan, but yes, I do have resentment that they didn't figure out a way to handle itself better during the boom. My business was shot to hell along with many others, and I seriously believe it could have taken an entirely different route with wise planning.
It is typical for transit initiatives to take multiple tries over years or even decades to be approved. That's nothing unique to Phoenix. In NYC, the Second Avenue subway is finally under construction after 75 years of delay. In Los Angeles, there is finally the prospect of extending the Purple Line beyond Koreatown after decades of battles over tunneling on the West Side. In Charlotte, the last U.S. city to implement rail transit prior to Phoenix, nearly a decade passed between passage of the funding referendum and the commencement of design and planning. Likewise, in Seattle, the first city to add light rail after Phoenix, it took years of false starts before construction began. Transit takes time. That's one of the messy complications of democracy.
I think you meant to say "tract housing." There's really no such thing as "track housing," unless maybe we're talking about places where railroad equipment is kept. Tract housing, like delayed transit projects and chain stores, is hardly unique to Phoenix. Its modern version is most often thought to have originated in Levittown, New York, but it has antecedents much earlier in Europe.
At least you're being honest in saying that your "complaining from behind a keyboard doesn't help anyone but [you]." In fact, I'd question whether it's even helping you. Rediscovering the city you've written off would be a better approach.
It is typical for transit initiatives to take multiple tries over years or even decades to be approved. That's nothing unique to Phoenix. In NYC, the Second Avenue subway is finally under construction after 75 years of delay. In Los Angeles, there is finally the prospect of extending the Purple Line beyond Koreatown after decades of battles over tunneling on the West Side. In Charlotte, the last U.S. city to implement rail transit prior to Phoenix, nearly a decade passed between passage of the funding referendum and the commencement of design and planning. Likewise, in Seattle, the first city to add light rail after Phoenix, it took years of false starts before construction began. Transit takes time. That's one of the messy complications of democracy.
I think you meant to say "tract housing." There's really no such thing as "track housing," unless maybe we're talking about places where railroad equipment is kept. Tract housing, like delayed transit projects and chain stores, is hardly unique to Phoenix. Its modern version is most often thought to have originated in Levittown, New York, but it has antecedents much earlier in Europe.
At least you're being honest in saying that your "complaining from behind a keyboard doesn't help anyone but [you]." In fact, I'd question whether it's even helping you. Rediscovering the city you've written off would be a better approach.
Your right, I did mean tract housing. I'm ok with being corrected, thanks.
And your point is taken about the other cities. This is definitely a young city in comparison with alot to learn... but I'm not overly confident its learning anything. If the city planners have the same attitude as you, that its up to the people to use google and make the best of whatever they develop, then I'm pretty sure there is no reason to expect anything different in the future.
When I look at the construction pre-1970. I can see it all occurred mostly in the core, and they built that way because thats just "the way it was done". By this point, we had role models like NYC and Chicago to understand when you start getting further from the core, you may need to make plans for a mass transit corridor. They didnt even plan the freeway system well as they had to use eminent domain to complete squaw peak SR51!
You acknowledge yourself that outside the loop is quite different from the core, and there is probably an equal amount of development, maybe even more outside the loop as what sits within it. So my question is, how far do you keep building out before you deviate from this new trend? What charm or uniqueness will there be to look back on for the building years of 1980+?
Those who dont want to acknowledge the past 20+ years of growth in Phoenix were pretty much an uncreative, brainless and soulless capitalist expansion would rather excuse the city and allow this trend to continue and attribute dissatisfaction to a person who just doesnt know how to use google.
Again, I know this debate is doing me no good. Why would I even want to convince someone that loves Phoenix that they should not? I generally save my opinions for those that ask if they "should" move here, and dont try to change peoples minds that like it or those that are forced into moving here.
I think my main reason for starting a dialogue was you used the OGMI to determine Phoenix is just like everywhere, but I found your study be a strange way to conclude that. Overall, I like that I can converse with you and share thoughts without getting in a knock down, dragged out verbal war. I think we are both intelligent and there is truth to both perspectives.
Have a good today. We are actually goin' out to enjoy the nice weather!
Last edited by cmist; 12-06-2009 at 11:33 AM..
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