Would you like to see a commuter train within Phoenix? (Tucson: home, employment)

[shiphead]

I am not talking about the light rail currently running. I am referring to a system that would run with the highway system getting people from say West Glendale to East Mesa within a short amount of time. A REAL solution to the commute.

What are your thoughts? feelings?

[asufan]

I am always for this kind of thing, but it wouldn't work in Phoenix because there is really no urban 'core'. Phoenix is so spread out with satellite employment centers, and residential concentration, that many stops are needed, not just 'point A to point B'.

[Tanque Verde]

Why would we want to encourage long commutes from west Glendale all the way out to east Mesa. Shouldn't we be encouraging shorter commutes to help save the planet?

[Ritchie_az]

Who will pay for it?

These things usually end up costing much more than they ever bring in.

BTW, it costs one million per mile to construct the roadbed, track and signalling system. The locomotives, cars and supporting infrastructure costs many millions more. Locomotives, for example, are going for 5-6 million each right now. You'd need at least 20 of them to start with.

[shiphead]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Who will pay for it?

These things usually end up costing much more than they ever bring in.

BTW, it costs one million per mile to construct the roadbed, track and signalling system. The locomotives, cars and supporting infrastructure costs many millions more. Locomotives, for example, are going for 5-6 million each right now. You'd need at least 20 of them to start with.

Holy Jesus...

Originally Posted by Tanque Verde

Why would we want to encourage long commutes from west Glendale all the way out to east Mesa. Shouldn't we be encouraging shorter commutes to help save the planet?

The train is the point of a shorter commute. One less car on the road and what makes you think people aren't doing this already? My wife has to drive 50 miles a day because there is no work for a teacher in this city. Shorter commutes are not realistic in Phoenix. I think something beyond the car would be.

[Tanque Verde]

Originally Posted by w1ngzer0

Holy Jesus...



The train is the point of a shorter commute. One less car on the road and what makes you think people aren't doing this already? My wife has to drive 50 miles a day because there is no work for a teacher in this city. Shorter commutes are not realistic in Phoenix. I think something beyond the car would be.

I'm sorry to hear your wife is having trouble getting work as a teacher somewhere close to home seeings how 50 mile commutes can be a real inconvenience and costly as well.
Hopefully things will improve because I doubt they'll be breaking ground on that cross valley train anytime soon.

Moderator cut: off topic

[joninaz]

There's no economically sound reason for rail to be developed for your needs, or many others. As mentioned there's no central hub of jobs. For rail to make sense, you need a pretty huge number of people needing to move in a certain direction and that same group needs to give up alternatives such as driving. In Arizona, the largest employers have chosen the burbs.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by w1ngzer0

I am not talking about the light rail currently running. I am referring to a system that would run with the highway system getting people from say West Glendale to East Mesa within a short amount of time. A REAL solution to the commute.

What are your thoughts? feelings?

Yes, commuter rail is part of the solution. Using existing freight track to link the northwestern and southeastern suburbs to employment hubs like Downtown Phoenix and Tempe makes a lot of sense. A recent Brookings Institution study found Phoenix ranked surprisingly low in job sprawl, despite the often-repeated cliche that most employment is in the suburbs. Some of it certainly is, but not to a greater extent than in other cities that have successfully implemented commuter rail. Commuter rail would also help in linking Tucson to Phoenix.

Nevertheless, it's going to be easier said than done. Commuter rail would most likely cross county lines and require support from the state legislature, which is notoriously hostile to public transportation. In addition, using existing freight tracks can be tough. Usually, the freight railroad maintains ownership of the tracks and the passenger railroads are second class citizens.

Still, it can and should be done. By the way, your wording implies that light rail is somehow unreal as a solution to commuting problems. Actually, it works quite well for many people in Central Phoenix and the inner suburbs of Phoenix. I use it myself most days. Where light rail shows its limitations is in trips from outer suburbs, and that's where commuter rail comes into the picture. Commuter rail complements light rail, rather than competing with it.

[Ritchie_az]

"Using existing freight track"

Aside from the BNSF tracks that run along Grande Ave, there aren't many "existing" freight tracks that would be helpful. And those BNSF tracks would need added sidings to handle the increased traffic, and additional personnel and equipment to run and maintain those tracks to the higher "commuter rail" standards. Aside from that, with it's close proximity to Grand Ave, there will be many more train/auto accidents along the route.
I'm sure the BNSF Railroad would not welcome such a proposal, nor would they be willing to cover the added costs.

"Usually, the freight railroad maintains ownership of the tracks and the passenger railroads are second class citizens."

None of the major railroads in the U.S. have pasenger service, yet every one of them lose money because of passenger trains. If you owned a business, would you want the government forcing you to support something that you would lose large sums of money on? That is a reality the railroads face. And that is what you are proposing.


My earlier question still stands unanswered: who will pay for it?

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

"Using existing freight track"

Aside from the BNSF tracks that run along Grande Ave, there aren't many "existing" freight tracks that would be helpful. And those BNSF tracks would need added sidings to handle the increased traffic, and additional personnel and equipment to run and maintain those tracks to the higher "commuter rail" standards. Aside from that, with it's close proximity to Grand Ave, there will be many more train/auto accidents along the route.
I'm sure the BNSF Railroad would not welcome such a proposal, nor would they be willing to cover the added costs.

"Usually, the freight railroad maintains ownership of the tracks and the passenger railroads are second class citizens."

None of the major railroads in the U.S. have pasenger service, yet every one of them lose money because of passenger trains. If you owned a business, would you want the government forcing you to support something that you would lose large sums of money on? That is a reality the railroads face. And that is what you are proposing.


My earlier question still stands unanswered: who will pay for it?

Your argument reinforces my point: Using existing freight track for commuter rail is not optimal. Nevertheless, it's probably the most realistic scenario. If you want my dream proposal, it might involve something like maglev trains on their own dedicated infrastructure, but of course a scenario like that would make the "who will pay for it" crowd scream even louder. Bringing the conversation back to reality then, if commuter rail does come ever come to Phoenix it will probably be on existing freight rail tracks, with all the issues associated with that approach.