Would you like to see a commuter train within Phoenix? (Tucson: new home, buy)

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

If the HOV lanes were regular traffic lanes, that would help, too.

If MORE people would carpool and use the HOV lanes as intended - it would be of some help

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by joninaz

As you said... you live in Avondale and want to get to Tempe. But maybe your neighbor has a job in Glendale, Deer Valley, Gilbert or Maricopa. Maybe they want to go to the airport, Arcadia or Fountain Hills. If you put a pin on the map and run a string to all the places your neighbors might want to go, that gives an idea of the number of potential train lines in all directions. Now multiply that by everyone in the valley of the sun. We're a chess board with 52 squares on a 700 square mile grid. And we want to move in different directions. Light Rail was funded through additional taxes and serves a scant 20 miles. It's been a total disaster and has drained the funds of the participating cities and sucked the new funding for other transport projects. If you model their spending, it would cost tens of billions to run rail lines all over the metro area. The state is already billions in the hole. We need to figure out how to make money.

Proof please. If anything; LR ridership has been higher than expected.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by miamiman

There is no need for commuter rail in the Valley. There is no centralized core of employment in the region, so it would be impossible to construct commuter rail system that could be used by workers.

Commuter rail between Tucson and Phoenix is a crazy idea too. How in the world are people going to get to their final destination once the train stops the station? This is not New York or DC. You can't just walk or use other forms of mass transit.

What will the 'tipping point' for many motorists is if/when gasoline hits $5 a gallon and stays there for a long time (I have a queasy premonition that such will occur with 12-24 months).

Read that there will be significant cultural changes.

[Ritchie_az]

"If MORE people would carpool and use the HOV lanes as intended - it would be of some help"

I'm all for carpools and park-and-rides, but when one lists why people carpool, "because I get to use the HOV lane" is not on the top of the list. Saving gas, less wear-and-tear, and only one family vehicle are the top reasons people carpool. The HOV lane is just a bonus. If that HOV lane was just a regular traffic lane instead, those same people would still carpool.

All the HOV lane does is hinder the vast majority of the drivers, while benefiting only a small minority of drivers who would be on the road anyway. The most efficient use of that pavement is to open it up to all drivers during the busiest times. That would ease rush hour a little.

If more employment centers were located in the suburbs, if more people telecommuted, and if more people worked evenings and nights, that would help ease rush hour, as well. When the U.S. 85 freeway project is complete from Buckeye to Gila Bend, that will route some through cars and trucks away from downtown, which will help a little. And if the Union Pacific re-opened the tracks west out of Phoenix (from the Palo Verde nuclear plant to Roll, AZ, which has been out of service since 1997) and began offering intermodel service from Phoenix to L.A., that would remove some of the trucks from the freeway (the BNSF railroad does this with some success, but the UP's line would be significantly more direct and--in theory--cheaper, which would generate more customers).

There are a lot of things that could be done. Spending tens of billions on a commuter train is, to me, the least logical option right now.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by w1ngzer0

Looking at the grid lock on all highways yesterday at 430pm, the car isn't working either.

There are many cities that are MUCH worse than Phoenix in terms of auto congestion. Most of those drivers are throwing themselves into traffic out of frustration.

If people wanted commuter rail, it would be in the works. It's not.

Originally Posted by w1ngzer0

What is your solution? More highway for more gridlock? more houses to destroy the natural area? more grass to suck the water that we lack? If you want to make money how about those speeding cameras for starters. We need to switch the funds the opposite way. 10% going to them 90% going to Arizona. But this is a thread about a commuter train NOT about Arizona and the lack of money that the state threw away

My solution is BOTH improved public transit and additional freeway construction. More freeways are needed because, like it or not, Valley residents are chained to their cars. Also, with the irregular commuting patterns of many people here, fixed-route public transportation is not nearly as convenient as the automobile.

Also, we should focus on improving our bus system before bringing in more rail. Unless we have rail running up and down or across every major street in the Valley, rail will fail to serve Valley residents as equitably as bus service does. Not to mention that rail service is significantly more expensive than bus service. Rail cost millions of dollar per mile. Who's going to pay for that? As stingy as Arizonans are about increased taxes, finding funding support from the public for commuter rail will not happen.

Sprawl will happen in Arizona regardless of what type of transit we put our money behind. A lot of people who move to the Valley like to live in new construction, found on the periphery.

This is not LA, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, or Chicago. This is Phoenix. Commuter rail is not feasible.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by ArizonaBear

What will the 'tipping point' for many motorists is if/when gasoline hits $5 a gallon and stays there for a long time (I have a queasy premonition that such will occur with 12-24 months).

Read that there will be significant cultural changes.

When will gas hit this $5 mark? I keep hearing about this, yet gas is significantly cheaper than it has been in quite some time.

It seems there have been tons of people with "queasy premonitons" over the years about oil supply and gas prices. Weren't we supposed to be out of oil by now?

Additionally, do you think $5 gas will cause Valley residents to migrate to public transit? When gas was nearly $4/gallon, the freeways were still congested, buses were still empty, and life still want on as usual. European countries, where gas is two to three times as expensive as gas in the United States, is seeing car ownership skyrocket.

So this idea that $5 gas will cause Americans, the biggest car lovers of all, to suddenly hope on a rail system is a pipe dream at best.

[joninaz]

Originally Posted by ArizonaBear

Proof please. If anything; LR ridership has been higher than expected.

LR replaced the most used bus route, so it's not as though it created a whole new audience of riders. They pretty much had to switch from bus to trains. It's similar to shutting down the ferry boats and buses between New Jersey and Manhattan. Surprise! The PATH train would break all records. Similarly, ASU shifted a several schools downtown and shut down all shuttles/buses from Tempe, again forcing a new group of riders. In media reports, the monthly highs and lows of ridership have usually been ascribed to ASU being in session, so it could be said that it's the nation's most pricey inter-campus shuttle service. The "higher than expected" stats are pure PR Spin. There's no historic data to support expected numbers. Metro is laying off drivers, cutting back services and this has also negatively impacted other transit.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by miamiman

When will gas hit this $5 mark? I keep hearing about this, yet gas is significantly cheaper than it has been in quite some time.

It seems there have been tons of people with "queasy premonitons" over the years about oil supply and gas prices. Weren't we supposed to be out of oil by now?

Additionally, do you think $5 gas will cause Valley residents to migrate to public transit? When gas was nearly $4/gallon, the freeways were still congested, buses were still empty, and life still want on as usual. European countries, where gas is two to three times as expensive as gas in the United States, is seeing car ownership skyrocket.

So this idea that $5 gas will cause Americans, the biggest car lovers of all, to suddenly hope on a rail system is a pipe dream at best.

Considering that gas was over $4 a gallon in 2008: $5 per is not unlikely.

Besides: crude oil prices are now above $81 a barrel and climbing due in part to the US dollar dropping in value which does tend to make imports more expensive.

[blisterpeanuts]

Originally Posted by miamiman

When will gas hit this $5 mark? I keep hearing about this, yet gas is significantly cheaper than it has been in quite some time.

It seems there have been tons of people with "queasy premonitons" over the years about oil supply and gas prices. Weren't we supposed to be out of oil by now?

Additionally, do you think $5 gas will cause Valley residents to migrate to public transit? When gas was nearly $4/gallon, the freeways were still congested, buses were still empty, and life still want on as usual. European countries, where gas is two to three times as expensive as gas in the United States, is seeing car ownership skyrocket.

So this idea that $5 gas will cause Americans, the biggest car lovers of all, to suddenly hope on a rail system is a pipe dream at best.

I think you make some good points but consider this--one little war is all it takes to push oil prices back into the stratosphere.

Also, when gasoline prices were high, bus ridership did go up in the Valley. I remember reading about it somewhere but I forget the exact numbers. Across the country, bus and train ridership were way up. It's not just a theory. Hybrid cars sales took off, too.

In my opinion, mass transit is a good thing. There are too many cars and trucks around here. Improving the public transportation to the point where it's actually convenient would cost a lot of money but long term it would be really worth it. But people need to visit a city where it works and see it in action before they believe it.

[homlish560]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

It would make more sense to me if work centers were spread across the valley more evenly. I think Phoenix metro work places are spread fairly well when compared to other large metro areas, but there is always room for improvement as the area grows.
The less the work areas are centrally located, the more chances of one living near his or her work. Surprise is an example of a suburb without enough work places.



If the HOV lanes were regular traffic lanes, that would help, too.

What kind of 'work centers' do you think a Bedroom community like Surprise, Peoria, Gilbert, or Queen Creek could possibly attract?????

I mean, besides Super Wal-Mart, or the many Real estate, Insurance offices, or bank branches scattered throughout the Strip malls.

Let's face it, the major 'work centers' are in Phx., with a few in Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, Chandler, and Glendale - not in the distant Suburbs.