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Huh? Aside from the light-rail, where is there a "seperation of commuter line and freight rail" anywhere in the Valley?
Aside from some of the lines that follow Grand Ave, the line into Central Phoenix that split to service Union Station are free of freight train usage...same is true for line that extend from Tempe to Queen Creek. There would be overlapping usage for freight and rail along portions of the commuter lines, but for much of the busiest stops, the lines would be separate.
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Yes, and those cities have had passenger rail service for well over 100 years (aside from the light-rail, Phoenix has zero passenger rail service). The lines they run on (almost entirely) are dedicated passenger rail lines (or lines with very minimal freight traffic) that the freight railroads discarded because they were not profitable. The line from downtown towards Buckeye would be the only one in the area that might qualify as such, and it would cost somewhere near 40+ million to fix to passenger rail standards (not including the construction of train stations).
Commuter service also ran in Phoenix until the mid 1960's and was discarded because of a switch from rail service to road construction but wasn't because of lowered commuter usage. Also, much of the commuter rail lines in L.A. are not 100 years old but very recent services. Same for every major city as more lines have been added in the last decades; including Atlanta, Albuquerque, Seattle, Baltimore, etc. Please link the costs of the 40+ million to fix the track and bring things to rail standards. I've yet to see any estimates. However, of course it would cost money. Do you know how much it is going to cost to built the "south mountain" freeway, the 801 (or whatever west valley freeway), finishing the 303 and all that will cost? Then when those roads become clogged, what a few hundred million more to expand them without any other option like commuter rail...
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I agree with the 40-55 MPH speeds in the Valley, but I don't think 79 MPH will happen anywhere. It also doesn't take into account the stops at stations (and stops for freight and passenger train meets), which drag down the "average" times significantly.
Not true as studies have shown in other cities, with again, 10 times the freight traffic compared to Phoenix. I don't think the trains will every really get to 79 MPH until they head towards QC and Wickenburg. But I'm sure most of rather wait a couple of minutes on a train, then wait for a long time in traffic delays which costs each individual car commuter money, and lots of it per year.
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I think you paint "rush hour" as much worse than it really is. I usually only encounter some slowing daily and stop-and-go a few times per week. I travel (on the I-10) both ways during rush hour, don't use the diamond lane (because it's just me in the car), and still average 57 1/2 MPH. That's FAR better than a commuter train could do.
Good for you, but I don't think most of the 2 million plus in the Valley would agree with you. Luckily, I don't need to commute on the freeways, but the times I've used them from 2PM - 7PM, they such and come to a halt many times. You average 57 MPH on the 10 in both directions DURING rush hour!?
They had said it would be a 40 minute wait, but then it started up in about 10 minutes. Then at each stop they announced they had clearance to one more station down the line but were unsure how long the wait would be at each one. They recommended that if you were in a hurry, you may want to get off at 44th/Washington and take a bus. We stayed on and I was never waiting more than 10 minute to at least move up one station. I felt pretty informed about the incident the whole way through and felt they handled it well despite the kink in the regular flow.
Yes, CMIST, is correct I think the average delay was 15 minutes and not "significant." If such a crash occurred on the freeway between vehicles, it would no doubt be a significant delay, LOL, especially since it occurred at 5pm.
Commuter service also ran in Phoenix until the mid 1960's and was discarded because of a switch from rail service to road construction but wasn't because of lowered commuter usage. Also, much of the commuter rail lines in L.A. are not 100 years old but very recent services. Same for every major city as more lines have been added in the last decades; including Atlanta, Albuquerque, Seattle, Baltimore, etc.
Don't forget that Salt Lake City, Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Charlotte, Austin (currently being built), and Cincinnati (just passed a ballot measure in Oct.) are all new lines also, Whewww what a waste of money, you'd think they'd learn!
Cmist, so how far did you go, and how long did it take? (I bet if you drove it would have been significantly quicker)
Yes I will admit a car would have been quicker. It had a lot of stops and seemed like it didnt really gather much speed before it was stopping again.
It didnt bother me really though because I was actually just enjoying the fact that I was moving without having to control a vehicle. Plus I get some sick entertainment value out of observing all the different types of people around me and laughing to myself at all the conversations and activities going on around me. I might be an outspoken arsehole on here, but in real life I'm more of a silent observer.
BUT I do realize its not really effective yet as a means to and from work quickly, and it doesnt seem to have scooped up any percentage of commuters that didnt already have access to bus lines. I still give them props for doing SOMETHING... This system is LONG OVERDUE and hope they will extend and improve it.
"Aside from some of the lines that follow Grand Ave, the line into Central Phoenix that split to service Union Station are free of freight train usage...same is true for line that extend from Tempe to Queen Creek. There would be overlapping usage for freight and rail along portions of the commuter lines, but for much of the busiest stops, the lines would be separate."
Just so I understand, are you proposing building new railroad lines for the passenger trains (instead of using existing ones)?
"Commuter service also ran in Phoenix until the mid 1960's"
So there is no confussion, you are talking about the trolley system. Aside from the short-lived "Hattie B" (which we already talked about was used when some bridges were closed due to flood), there has been no commuter trains in Phoenix (only long-haul passenger trains).
"Also, much of the commuter rail lines in L.A. are not 100 years old but very recent services."
Well, the commuter train is newer, but almost all of the lines Metrolink uses have had passenger service on them for over 100 years or close to 100 years. You may want to review the history of rail transportation is southern California.
"Same for every major city as more lines have been added in the last decades; including Atlanta, Albuquerque, Seattle, Baltimore, etc."
Not true for Baltimore. I'm pretty sure that Atlanta and Albuquerque (sp?) don't have commuter rail service. Seattle may be a good example for you, but look at the taxes and cost of living in that area.
"Please link the costs of the 40+ million to fix the track and bring things to rail standards."
A lot depends on how much land needs to be purchased and how much it costs to pull up the existing tracks and how long that line would be. But laying roadbed and track and installing a signalling system is 1 million per mile. I was going with 30 miles of track (at 1 million per mile), plus 10 or more million to purchase the needed land for stations and parking lots, and the cost of pulling up the old tracks. In reality, the 40 million estimate is on the low side, for sure.
"Not true as studies have shown in other cities, with again, 10 times the freight traffic compared to Phoenix."
Those cities have dedicated passenger rail lines, so the freight traffic is irrelevant. As far as I've seen, that is not what is being proposed here.
"You average 57 MPH on the 10 in both directions DURING rush hour!?"
That's 57 1/2 MPH average for the entire commute. That includes 10 minutes of kind-of-city/kind-of-country driving and a large construction area on the I-10.
"Don't forget that Salt Lake City, Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Charlotte, Austin (currently being built), and Cincinnati (just passed a ballot measure in Oct.) are all new lines also, Whewww what a waste of money, you'd think they'd learn!"
Aside from the Trinity Rail Express between Dallas and Ft. Worth, I don't think any of the cities you mentioned have a passenger rail system (aside from Light-Rail, which is in a different, albeit similar, catagory).
Not true for Baltimore. I'm pretty sure that Atlanta and Albuquerque (sp?) don't have commuter rail service. Seattle may be a good example for you, but look at the taxes and cost of living in that area.
Albuquerque has what is called the Rail Runner - it is a new Diesel Commuter Rail that opened in 2006 and there are plans to extend it up to Santa Fe.
Just so I understand, are you proposing building new railroad lines for the passenger trains (instead of using existing ones)?
No, they already exist...
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So there is no confussion, you are talking about the trolley system. Aside from the short-lived "Hattie B" (which we already talked about was used when some bridges were closed due to flood), there has been no commuter trains in Phoenix (only long-haul passenger trains).
No, the Phoenix Street Car System/Trolley system ran until 1950 and in the central city region, the heavy commuter rail had service from Wickenburg to Mesa; my great aunt used to ride the commuter train from her home in Wickenburg to downtown Phoenix until 1961, then she moved to the Arcadia area after service ended because of her job. The commuter service did exist between the Valley as it ran from Wickenburg, along Grand Ave, stopped at Union Station, and then went on to Tempe and Mesa...there was most certainly a commuter train in Phoenix.
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Well, the commuter train is newer, but almost all of the lines Metrolink uses have had passenger service on them for over 100 years or close to 100 years. You may want to review the history of rail transportation is southern California.
NO, some of Metrolink uses old passenger lines that are 100 years or close to that. Many of the suburbs that Metrolink serves today didn't exist 100 years ago and certainly not with the population of today to make a commuter link viable that long ago.
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Not true for Baltimore. I'm pretty sure that Atlanta and Albuquerque (sp?) don't have commuter rail service. Seattle may be a good example for you, but look at the taxes and cost of living in that area.
Again, many of the recently expanded Baltimore commuter lines are recent developments and not 100 years old.
It is called the New Mexico Rail Runner Commuter Train and connects parts of metro Albuquerque to Santa Fe...there is also a UNM Lobo train that connects the university to the metro areas for special events and games.
Atlanta (a google earth M.A.R.T.A. commuter rail stop map:
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Description: This collection of all the rail stations within the Atlanta public transit system's M.A.R.T.A. commuter railway. M.A.R.T.A. stands for "Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority", and has been a part of Atlanta for over 25 years now.
With rail stations serving the city with North/South and East/West lines (running approximately parrallel with the cities major interstate system), combined with a full range of Bus routes in and around the city, this public transit system is great for the city of Atlanta.
Each of the rail stations are marked with little green cars, with the one central station (Five Points Station) marked with a red car.
Click on each station for more information, including Station Name, Line name, Address and closest intersection.
A lot depends on how much land needs to be purchased and how much it costs to pull up the existing tracks and how long that line would be. But laying roadbed and track and installing a signalling system is 1 million per mile. I was going with 30 miles of track (at 1 million per mile), plus 10 or more million to purchase the needed land for stations and parking lots, and the cost of pulling up the old tracks. In reality, the 40 million estimate is on the low side, for sure.
Ok, so basically your "estimates" are conjecture and your opinion rather than actual funded study-plan cost analysis.
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Those cities have dedicated passenger rail lines, so the freight traffic is irrelevant. As far as I've seen, that is not what is being proposed here.
Not true, as evidence from the very rare, EXTREMELY rare rail accidents that have occurred between freight and commuter train cars. Some have dedicated lines especially in the cities' cores and near the urban "central" station as will occur in Phoenix.
"You average 57 MPH on the 10 in both directions DURING rush hour!?"
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That's 57 1/2 MPH average for the entire commute. That includes 10 minutes of kind-of-city/kind-of-country driving and a large construction area on the I-10.
Again you must drive a good route, but most people that a commuter rail train would impact wait much longer, and drive much slower than that on the i-10, 101, 202, and 60...Try driving through the tunnel to Ray Rd. during rush hour or the opposite direction through the tunnel to the 101 in the West Valley...then take the 60 and the 202 in the East Valley towards Tempe, Mesa, Chandler, etc and see if you'd breeze by at 57 MPH...
Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-03-2009 at 03:59 PM..
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