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"And all of those cities have smart, educated people knocking on the doors for a job."
And all of those "smart, educated people" better be able to find a high-paying job in those areas to enjoy the same quality of life that I (little ol' "dumb" me, I guess) enjoy here.
"and the people living in the urban area don't have to pay for things such as a car, car insurance, gas, camera light tickets..."
Usually because they can't afford to own a car, paying $2,000 a month for a condo half the size of my house. I enjoy my car a lot and can't image not being able to drive (it would drive me nuts!--pun intended). And I've never received a ticket from the cameras....
I think you are trying to oversimplify what I've proposed, which is actually quite complex
Quote:
Your statement was extremely over simplified. I don't have the time or energy to teach you the ins and outs.
That's twice in this thread that you've said that the concepts are too complicated to explain. Do you think us simpletons can't understand it or are you just trying to avoid a topic that doesn't weigh in your favor?
Usually because they can't afford to own a car, paying $2,000 a month for a condo half the size of my house. I enjoy my car a lot and can't image not being able to drive (it would drive me nuts!--pun intended). And I've never received a ticket from the cameras....
No one is saying that anyone (or you in particular) should be without a car. Those are choices that people happily make. I myself would prefer to live in an urban environment where I can walk to locally owned restaurants, bars, stores, etc and take public transit everywhere else. I lived part of my life in the suburbs and was completely auto-dependent, but I found that living in an urban environment (North Chicago on the Red Line) was a much more satisfying and fulfilling lifestyle.
Like I said, you yourself appear to be completely happy (I don't know you personally but that is the impression I get) in a suburb where you are auto-dependent and have walmarts all around.
The problem is that that the more urban lifestyle is not being offered in places like Phoenix because all of the growth has been focused on more and more subdivisions, suburbs, strip malls, highways, &c..
No one here is telling you to sell your car, move into a tiny loft, force you to (god forbid) walk places, shop at locally (and sometimes more expensive) retailers, &c., I am just expressing my desire for more urban areas, better public transit, walkable neighborhoods, and public spaces.
I completely understand your frustration, but from a business and economic standpoint, the market did demand such housing because it is what has been selling until recently; now we see demand (and rising prices) in communities closer to the core, even if in a suburb but in a more reasonably planned distance. There really was no reason for homes to be purchased in the far fringes with plenty of housing available much closer in town and to historic suburbs where new housing was still available. I think it just took this type of recession to "shock" the market and shift demand. This has happened in every major market in terms of suburban sprawl; from NYC to Seattle.
The market didnt crash because everyone got sick of suburbia and started buying in the city, leaving new builders with their pants down. People simply bought whatever product was available and had no real say in the matter on how large their yards should be, or what stores or entertainment should be built near them. It was developed for cold hard quick cash with little thought for quality of life. When it got to the point that new homes in the boonies actually cost MORE than living in town, it made sense to shift. Before that point, you drove out to the boonies to get a good deal. I remember looking at homes somewhere around the peak and and asking myself, "why would anyone pay MORE to live further out? something is seriously jacked up here".
The crash was related to bad loans, oversupply, and we were among the worst in the nation. I think that says a little something about the functionality of our city. Homes are worth a dime a dozen because our city obviously had overbuilt to such an extreme that we topped the charts. Thats not something to be proud of. On the other hand, I just read in a different thread that Sierra Vista hardly experienced any market crash because they didnt go hog wild during the boom. They kept new construction to a minimum and demand remained strong. They didn't cash in as quickly as possible on the easy loan frenzy and then collapse while shrinking back to normal.
I also disagree that Phoenix growth is wise from an economic standpoint. I would have no problem driving an extra 5 minutes to go the original shopping I was used to going to before they built another one even closer with the same stores. But the reason the new center came in was because a Target opened up to the north, so Walmart had to squeeze in too, even though there is another one 5 minutes down the road. This pinched off Targets profits as well as running a local grocery store into the ground, while it's also splitting its own customer base between 2 of their own Walmart stores, paying a lease on 2 buildings instead of 1... even though almost anyone would have been fine with driving the extra five minutes. It clutters up the landscape with redundancy to get to the instant gratification population and uses space that could be used for something unique. I think this practice is a LOSE-LOSE situation for everyone.
Its pure greed on every level and I think we are seeing and feeling the effects of this brainless growth right now. I just hope the city realizes it and changes their philosophy before its profitable to follow the same mindless path.
"That's twice in this thread that you've said that the concepts are too complicated to explain. Do you think us simpletons can't understand it or are you just trying to avoid a topic that doesn't weigh in your favor?"
The first time I said it, the concepts were/are too complex and detailed that it cannot be explained here. I can recommend a book or two if you'd like.
The second time I said it, it was because I've already explained it in a different thread, and feel there is no need to repeat it in this thread. If you are interested, I can post a link to that thread.
"No one is saying that anyone (or you in particular) should be without a car. Those are choices that people happily make."
And for every person who "happily" chooses to not have a car, how many more are there that happily choose to own and drive a car? So why have a urban/suburban model that caters to those who "happily" choose not to drive and that increases taxes on those who "happily" choose to drive? Seems to me that if the vast majority "happily" choose to drive, then the urban/suburban model should cater to them.
"you yourself appear to be completely happy (I don't know you personally but that is the impression I get) in a suburb where you are auto-dependent and have walmarts all around."
Yeah, and that's how most people feel.
"The problem is that that the more urban lifestyle is not being offered in places like Phoenix because all of the growth has been focused on more and more subdivisions, suburbs, strip malls, highways, &c.."
You call it a "problem" and I don't. It goes back to this question: who made you the "Growth God"?
"No one here is telling you to sell your car, move into a tiny loft, force you to (god forbid) walk places, shop at locally (and sometimes more expensive) retailers, &c., I am just expressing my desire for more urban areas, better public transit, walkable neighborhoods, and public spaces."
I think most feel (not necessarily on this board, but in Phoenix metro in general) that you can take your "smart growth" urbanism and place it where the sun doesn't shine. So why cater to the minority who want urbanism when the majority wants suburbanism? Just because you say so?
"Its pure greed on every level and I think we are seeing and feeling the effects of this brainless growth right now."
And another thing: what is wrong with "greed"? After all, isn't it a "greedy" company who employs you? And a "greedy" company who built your house? A "greedy" company that supplies you food? Cools your home in the summer and heats your home in the winter? Wasn't it a "greedy" company that built your car? And built the light-rail train? And constructed the roads? Provided you medication? Bottled your water? Gave you an education? Gee, seems like all this "greed" has done you a whole lot of good.
"Its pure greed on every level and I think we are seeing and feeling the effects of this brainless growth right now."
And another thing: what is wrong with "greed"? After all, isn't it a "greedy" company who employs you? And a "greedy" company who built your house? A "greedy" company that supplies you food? Cools your home in the summer and heats your home in the winter? Wasn't it a "greedy" company that built your car? And built the light-rail train? And constructed the roads? Provided you medication? Bottled your water? Gave you an education? Gee, seems like all this "greed" has done you a whole lot of good.
Actually, no I'm self employed and dont operate under greedy pretenses. I realize if I take care of the clients that need my services I get paid well.
And I'm not against industry. Let them manufacture whatever we need and make good money from it. Competition helps consumers, and I'm all for that.
Where it turns into greed is when a landscape is littered with redundancy for the sake of instant gratification, and no thought is placed on the quality of life.
If you get enjoyment out of being 5 minutes closer to Wal-mart, I'm not knocking you. You are entitled to enjoy it with every fiber of your being. As for me, when I see ground breaking, I get a little excited as to what might be coming, and when I see the plaza turn out to be a carbon copy of the very same thing 5 minutes down the road, I'm disappointed and disgusted. Thats just me.
And who made you the Suburban God? Who are you to say what type of suburb is "good" and what type is "bad"? The suburb that you say is "bad" is exactly the suburb I completely enjoy living in, and look forward to raising my family in. My "bad" suburb has been voted the best master-planned suburb four years running, and was part of an All-American and Most Livable award for 2008. Really, you'd be very hard pressed finding a better suburb anywhere. Frankly, my "bad suburbia" is great, and I would probably not wish to live in any "good suburbia".
"Even worse than residential sprawl is job sprawl"
I think the problem is two fold:
1) The urban model (IMHO) is fundamentally flawed
2) Business growth has not kept up with residential growth in up-and-coming areas
If resident-to-job ratios were more balanced across the Valley, you'd have fewer people commuting towards the same destination (downtown and other large job centers) every morning and away from them every afternoon. If more businesses allowed Alternative Work Schedules and/or Telecommuting, that would help, as well.
"Suburban God" -- I love it! I might just use instead of "self-important urbanista" as my nickname once in a while. In answer to your question, I made myself "God" -- just as everyone does in an Internet discussion forum. This all about personal opinion, and anyone who claims to post 100% based on irrefutable fact is engaged in self-delusion. I post my opinions, you post yours, and so on. Your definitions of "good suburbia" and "bad suburbia" are clearly different from mine, so let the debate continue.
I've got to admit, I liked your reply, silverbear.
"'Suburban God' -- I love it! I might just use instead of "self-important urbanista" as my nickname once in a while. In answer to your question, I made myself "God" -- just as everyone does in an Internet discussion forum. This all about personal opinion, and anyone who claims to post 100% based on irrefutable fact is engaged in self-delusion. I post my opinions, you post yours, and so on. Your definitions of "good suburbia" and "bad suburbia" are clearly different from mine, so let the debate continue."
"As for me, when I see ground breaking, I get a little excited as to what might be coming, and when I see the plaza turn out to be a carbon copy of the very same thing 5 minutes down the road, I'm disappointed and disgusted. Thats just me."
You're an entrepreneur, why not focus that disappointment and disgust towards coming up with something that is not "a carbon copy" and "the very same thing [as] 5 minutes down the road"? Sounds like an opportunity, if you ask me.
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