In defense of Phoenix (Tucson, Scottsdale: apartment, condo, how much)
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I have seen too many posts like the following quote from "I thought Phoenix would be more progressive..." so I'm starting a new topic with my response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by irwin
Well, unfortunately I don't think Phoenix can build itself out of the traffic problem at this point. Bigger and wider freeways is only going to cause more sprawling development and less mixed development. I mean, even if you forget about how ugly strip malls are...why don't they place them in areas that are close to neighborhoods?
Ok, normally I am one to bash Phoenix, but now I'm going to speak in its defense. What is this thing about bashing "strip malls," the ultimate evil? Sure, some strip malls are pretty ugly, especially ones built in the 1950s-1970s. But I've also seen some of the most attractive and beautiful strip malls right here. Examples: the Casa Paloma shopping center on Ray Rd & 56th st-- I find its Mediterranean theme tasteful and well executed. The three shopping centers by Guadalupe and McClintock in Tempe, with the neo-pueblo style are cool, with nice signs lit up at night. Even some older ones are pretty cool-- the Mill Towne Center by Baseline and Mill Ave, and the ostentatious Papago Plaza off Scottsdale Rd & McDowell. And I'd say the Casas Adobes shopping center in Tucson is beautiful.
Strip malls ARE the urban form of localized retail development of the last 60 years. They serve exactly the same function as buildings lined up and down mainstreet did in the early 20th century-- the only difference is that they are set back from the street to give room for parking. Old-style "mainstreet" downtowns, like Mill Ave, are nice to visit only because they have been reinvented as museum pieces, nostalgia for the past (Ever taken a trip to Holbrook, AZ, and seen the totally abandoned mainstreet on the south side of the freeway? That's what happens to your pedestrian downtowns if they are not reinvented). Cities with these tourist-friendly mainstreets are living off the accumulated capital of the past. They do not build true downtowns anymore-- only yuppie-fied outdoor malls like Kierland Commons with imitation mainstreets.
But ironically, the boring strip malls that everybody is constantly bashing, especially the older ones are often more authentic than the photogenic pedestrian "mainstreets." A lot of older, ugly strip malls are chock full of unique, local businesses, ethnic restaurants, ethnic grocery stores, all that good urban stuff that everybody claims is absent in Phoenix. Some of the best Indian food I've ever had was in an ugly strip mall off Rural Rd. And meanwhile, the Mill Avenues of America are increasingly becoming all the same, with the same corporate chains capitalizing on their "trendiness."
Same thing with "ugly," tract homes. Give these neighborhoods time, 30+ years, and you'll see how much they will become diversified, with different landscaping, different paint jobs, and renovation projects. I think a lot of older neighborhoods (before the stucco and pink tile roof craze of the 90's) have some real character, that make you feel, yes, you are definitely in Arizona. The funny thing about older towns and cities with gentrified Victorian-era bungalows is that 100 years ago those homes were the cookie-cutter, look alikes of their day-- and yet, the cookie-cutter of 100 years ago is mysteriously the cherished "historical" heritage of today. Ironically, some of the most characterless, generic, impersonal residential buildings I have ever seen are new urbanist projects-- those ugly rectangular glass blobs that have been going up in downtowns all across America. Have you ever seen the promotional video for the Centerpoint towers they are building in downtown Tempe? With all its mumbo-jumbo, there is not not thing in the entire video that says anything about what Tempe is.
There are a lot of things you can legitimately criticize Phoenix for, but it is definitely an urban city. It might not be a fun, hip and trendy city, or have a lot of high culture, intellectual activities, or civic spirit (all of which, however, are improving-- let's give it a chance)-- it might not be a city to your liking, but it is a real city, nonetheless.
You're entitled to your views, and I can respect that.
But you're forgetting several things about strip malls that make them very unattractive.
1st, they are devoted entirely to the car-culture. Try to walk to 1 on foot - forget it! You'll be smashed like a melon in no time - especially considering the Mario Andretti kind of leadfoots that seem to thrive in the valley.
2nd, even if you prefer to drive, the parking is crazy, and unshaded in most caes. I don't wish to park a car out in a wide-open asphalt lot when it's 100 or more outside.
3rd, most of them are in suburbia, which takes away people,traffic, and business from the downtown areas. They can leave the central city overly quiet, and make stucco-suburbs crowded. It should be the other way around!
If Phoenix had developed in another time period when the car didn't dominate our culture, the city would be different. Every city is a work in progress. Sadly, if we'd realized how much the automobile actually steals from our daily lives, we would have done things differently. The historical perspective given by vegaspilgrim is insightful.
Moose168, I respect your views and in some cases (when it's >110) I'd have to agree. I live about 0.8 miles from my grocery store and I walk with the awareness that I take my life in my own hands at the two major streets I have to traverse. Just today a tow truck ran a red light a full one second after it had changed while I stood an inch from the curb with my hands in the air begging for an explanation. The driver returned the favor by raising one of his hands in the air suggesting "what'm I supposed to do?". I mention this because THAT's the part I don't like about Phoenix. I could get run over practically anywhere in this country and Phoenix is no exception.
Also, you can't change the fact that there isn't much shade in our parking lots. But think of it from this perspective: if there WAS shade, it would obscure the stores' identities and defeat the purpose for the parking lot altogether.
Finally, I'm behind you 100% moose168 on the issue of these strip malls subtracting from downtown. A few years back, Orange County CA was regarded as the best place to live in America. You couldn't pay me enough to live there. Why? Because it has no center, no downtown, nothing to define itself in my opinion. There's no there there, to use that term. Parts of it ARE VERY NICE INDEED, but without a downtown, it doesn't serve a purpose for me. Everywhere I've lived, I wanted to work downtown. I was fortunate to work in downtown Seattle, LA, Chicago, and San Francisco. A town without a single center ('urban villages' don't count, what a joke!) is no town at all.
I'm still in favor of Phoenix over other cities for a variety of reasons. But I am critical of its development and wish its transient citizens would care as well. This concern even extends to my country. Maybe, as I learned in urban planning studies, there's a definite size limit to urban living. After so many people or so many square miles, the identity breaks down and the urban existence loses its meaning. For many, and I include moose168 in this group, that loss of meaning has already manifested here in Phoenix. Some days--though not all mind you--I feel the same way.
Some good observations in vegaspilgrim's original post.
Regarding strip malls, they're not always pretty and they're definitely a concession to the car, but they are where many unique businesses are located. In Phoenix and other sunbelt cities, the most interesting restaurants and shops are often located in strip malls. Revitalized downtown areas play a role, but they tend to be more oriented toward entertainment and chain businesses. Even in eastern cities such as Philadelphia and New York I've been amazed lately at how high-profile downtown areas are becoming the domain of national chains, while interesting independent businesses are in strip malls or their equivalents in more outlying areas.
Regarding "cookie cutter" houses, I personally would never want to live in a newly built sea of beige on the edge of Phoenix. Nevertheless, I seldom hear people complain about the cookie-cutter quality of the endless miles of nearly identical row houses in Philadelphia and Baltimore. It seems that often when something becomes historic, we become more forgiving of its flaws. It will be interesting to see how newly built Phoenix neighborhoods are viewed several decades in the future.
Finally, as the original post suggested, most neighborhoods diversify over time. I'm sure my Phoenix neighborhood looked pretty uniform when it was built in the early '70s, but these days so many residents have renovated, expanded, and customized that no two houses look alike anymore.
The notion that a town/city has an inherent "identity" is a beautiful and romantic idea, involving the imagination, but it is not a tangible thing. Cities can have many different meanings for many different people. For example, the only meaning that Holbrook, AZ (to use that earlier example) has for me is as a pit stop on the way from Phoenix to New Mexico. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a place to grab McD's, fuel up. And yet I'm sure that the town (pop 5095) has a history behind it, not to mention the several thousand people for whom it is their home-- and maybe even hometown. For people who live in Sun City, Phoenix is a retirement destination, a place where one spends the end of one's life. For out-of-state college students at ASU, Phoenix/Tempe is a college town. For young families from CA, PHX is a place where they can finally afford to buy a house and live the American dream. For Mexican immigrants, PHX is "El Norte." And for a lot of people, PHX is their hometown.
mhouse2001, I understand your concern with the "loss of meaning"-- but when did Phoenix ever have a capital M meaning? I can name a lot of things in the micro-level that make Phoenix unique-- certain subcultures, population groups. I can name dozens of interesting spots here and there all over the Valley. There are some historic oddball personalities that have lived here-- some of whom we are living with right now. A lot of governmental quirks that only AZ has. What does is all add up to? Who knows? PHX isn't, and never was a high-ticket world-famous city. It ain't New York, it ain't Hollywood, it ain't Las Vegas. It's Middle America.
What is so bad about strip malls and free parking? It is easy to get around, cheaper, more comfortable, and more convenient. I've lived in Washington DC for a year and hated it. Every weekend I could not wait to get in my car and get out of the congestion.
I am about to finish a Masters in Urban Planning and I cannot believe how some people just think suburbia is hell. It is peaceful, inexpensive, and new. Cities are pretty to visit but wayyy over-rated fo living.
This is why metro Phoenix is a real city that refelcts how people want to really live in the 21st Century. I am moving to Tempe from Ann Arbor which is a small city that thinks its big: hard to park, hard to get around, overpriced crap that can be purchased 10 miles away. And what is wrong with commuting to work or the store in the comfort of a big, private automobile? You are not subject to smelly bums on a bus. You don't have to wait on an elogated timetable that solely determines if you bus comes or not, and you can move on your own time. Traffic jams are no fun...we can all agree. But it gives us time alone to decompress. They are tolerable and allow you to conduct business or personal matters thanks to the convenience of laptops and cell phones.
If you don't like Phoenix because it is not a city that conforms to the 19th Century definition, feel free to leave. After all, my Ford F-450 needs more room to operate safely.
Location: 5 miles from the center of the universe-The Superstition Mountains
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Any baseball fans out there? I mean fans of the GAME? What happened in the late 1950's? (yea, it's time for another boring history lesson)
The Dodgers abandoned Brooklyn for LA. The giants deserted NEW YORK CITY(!) for SF - I know sf has a downtown but it wasn't even in the same league as NEW YORK CITY. Tens of millions of people left the big overcrowded cities, not just the teams. Almost 3 million people too many chose Phoenix.
The lack of a "downtown" wasn't an oversight. People who have been here all their lives, as well as most of the people who've come over last 25-30 years WANTED a house and a yard. They didn't want to live in a high rise apartment. I'm not going to argue about the architecture that has been prevalent for the last 20 years. Personally, I think it...SUCKS. (that came from Kalifornia).
Phoenix originally was a farming community. The original settlers put in over a hundred miles of canals and made this barren desert livable. Several hundred years later, in 1867 some white guy named Swilling came to the neighborhood, and thought the area would be great as a farming community! There was this river running through the middle of it, so all he needed to do was dig out the canals. http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/CITYGOV/history.html (broken link)
The only thing I dislike about the heat in the summer here is it's not hot enough to keep more people from coming. Too bad someone introduced a/c to the area in the 1950's. Most people had to get by with "swamp coolers" in their homes (they don't work when the dew point reaches about 50-55, which is the entire monsoon season), and to cool off the car we rolled the windows down. (Maybe if Mizzz Napolitano would ban a/c in cars along with the leaf blowers?)
I agree with Andre5140: What is so bad about strip malls and free parking? When we go grocery shopping, we buy enough to fill the trunk of the car. How many trips would that be walking down the street in NY? And why do you care what they look like? They're just stores! We go there to buy stuff, then we take that stuff home.
I don't understand the pedestrian complaint about having to drive everywhere either. Your perception is all wrong...we don't have to drive everywhere, we get to drive everywhere. Driving is fun! The only time walking is really enjoyable is while hiking. I love hiking and everywhere I hike, I get to drive there and back.
I only have one question for people who live here and hate it: Do you need any help packing?
Not sure where people seem to think they are a modern type of development. If anything, they are old news and most cities are dumping them for more pedestrian friendly development. I realize that if your entire frame of reference is Phoenix and Vegas you would think that strip malls are the "in" thing, but they are yesterdays style. Look at Arlington, VA along the Orange Line corridor for example. That really didn't start changing until the 1980's and it's a perfect example of how modern development is emerging. Focuses on transit and pedestrian friendly areas where density slowly tapers off as you move away from the corridor. Arlington is a suburb and light-years ahead of anything you would see in the Valley.
That's not the only example. Look at Bellevue, WA, Midtown Atlanta, Buckhead, Midtown Houston, Uptown Houston, Greenville in Dallas, Lodo in Denver, etc. The list goes on. These were all sprawl-based areas but now they are increasingly turning to alternate developments BECAUSE of the traffic problems that strip malls cause. They are a nightmare and actually rather dangerous. You are much more likely to get killed driving to get your groceries than walking there
Now, on the greater point of why driving everywhere is not preferable. First, look at the rear ends of most Americans. Obesity is a national disgrace and it is getting worse. This is a national health care problem what with the numbers of diabetes and HBP. Drive everywhere and pop into the drive through may be "fun" but it is terrible for your health. Second, ever checked the air quality in Phoenix? It's terrible. Part of the problem is that you are required to drive everywhere for everything. Third, stress and the general danger that comes with driving. Americans are stressed and more Americans are killed on the road than anywhere else. Hardly "fun." Fourth, global warming. It is happening folks and the drive-happy American culture is a BIG part of the problem. Fourth, national security. How many more wars do we have to fight in the Middle East to secure global oil supplies before we start to ask if that third SUV or F-350 is really needed? Finally, the drive everywhere culture has ripped the heart out of our neighborhoods. It increases social isolation, increases sprawl, and destroys neighborhood identity. Hey, there are no neighborhoods in Phoenix! Wonder why?
So, if you like the Taco Bell architecture, terrible air, traffic, stress, fat rumps, unhealthy life here...knock your socks off. And have fun when gas prices start to rise through the roof again, both because of market forces and the upcoming carbon tax (it's coming folks). I'm off to Boston...and, no thank, I have already started to pack so I never have to see this place again.
Not sure where people seem to think they are a modern type of development. If anything, they are old news and most cities are dumping them for more pedestrian friendly development. I realize that if your entire frame of reference is Phoenix and Vegas you would think that strip malls are the "in" thing, but they are yesterdays style. Look at Arlington, VA along the Orange Line corridor for example. That really didn't start changing until the 1980's and it's a perfect example of how modern development is emerging. Focuses on transit and pedestrian friendly areas where density slowly tapers off as you move away from the corridor. Arlington is a suburb and light-years ahead of anything you would see in the Valley.
That's not the only example. Look at Bellevue, WA, Midtown Atlanta, Buckhead, Midtown Houston, Uptown Houston, Greenville in Dallas, Lodo in Denver, etc. The list goes on. These were all sprawl-based areas but now they are increasingly turning to alternate developments BECAUSE of the traffic problems that strip malls cause. They are a nightmare and actually rather dangerous. You are much more likely to get killed driving to get your groceries than walking there.
While I think strip malls suffer from an unjustly negative reputation, I would never suggest they are the height of modernity. In fact, I see them as an evolutionary step in the urbanization of newer cities. Many of the neighborhoods mentioned above in other cities have been significantly re-enginereed as a result of transit-oriented development. The same is already beginning to occur in Phoenix and Tempe along the route of the light rail line. While it is neither realistic nor desirable to remake all of Phoenix into a high-density city, the trend of higher densities clustering around transit corridors is already underway here.
That's not the only example. Look at Bellevue, WA, Midtown Atlanta, Buckhead, Midtown Houston, Uptown Houston, Greenville in Dallas, Lodo in Denver, etc. The list goes on. These were all sprawl-based areas but now they are increasingly turning to alternate developments BECAUSE of the traffic problems that strip malls cause.
I'm from Denver and have been to LoDo a lot-- and I don't see the logic here. LoDo is a perfect example of that "trendy" urbanism I talked about in my original post. It is a beatup warehouse district that has been/is being converted to a baseball park and bar area. It gives Denver an additional entertainment center, a new place to go on Saturday night. That hasn't mitigated sprawl in any way. And LoDo is a textbook example of how ugly and CHARACTERLESS New Urbanism is-- barren brick buildings or pure glass box condo towers with no trees, landscaping, or vegetation at all. What makes Denver a great city are the many older established neighborhoods like Washington Park from the 19th/early 20th centuries-- which are fundamentally SUB-urban in character-- large single family homes, set back from the street with a lot of landscaping, and parks.
Quote:
Now, on the greater point of why driving everywhere is not preferable. First, look at the rear ends of most Americans. Obesity is a national disgrace and it is getting worse. This is a national health care problem what with the numbers of diabetes and HBP. Drive everywhere and pop into the drive through may be "fun" but it is terrible for your health.
I agree that driving everywhere isn't all that great and that obesity is a problem... but again, I fail to see the logic. Why then do New York City and Philadelphia, older transit-oriented cities, have some of the fattest people in the nation? And Denver, which is just as sprawled out as Phoenix is, is usually ranked as one of the "fittest" cities (the light rail is a brand new thing there-- that has nothing to do with it). It has nothing to do with strip malls and commute times-- some cities, like Denver, Minneapolis, and Austin, TX-- which are all sprawled out, car-based modern American cities, have a strong outdoorsy oriented culture, and a lot of parks, open space, and running trails within the city itself. Phoenix has a lot to offer in this department too, with the various mountain parks. Ever seen how many people hike Camelback mountain every day? Go there at 6:00 in the morning and then tell me everybody here is out of shape. Your lifestyle is your own choice.
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