Spring Garden: the neighborhood photo tour (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: lease, crime, new house)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

It's already happening to an extent. Specifically, on Tripoli near East there are currently several renovated row homes for sale in the $140K range.

Cool! If you can get that much for units there, it should attract a lot of investment going forward.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

It's weird how differently I feel about these sorts of scenes in photographs versus standing there in person. It's a beautiful picture, but if I were there in person, I'd be noticing

• The random traffic cone
• the garbage bags
• satellite dishes
• broken sidewalks
• random bent fence post and cement blocks in the lower right
• the several boarded up buildings
• most likely some sketchy person or speeding cars coming dangerously close to me

I guess you can't see the forest for the trees. You can find all of those same issues in Shadyside. I know, because I lived there for a year, and after a while that's all I saw.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Cool! If you can get that much for units there, it should attract a lot of investment going forward.

Oops, I just realized I goofed up. I meant to say Tripoli and Turtle Way (not East). I had been hoping that the new construction between Turtle Way and Madison was residential or something more residential or a restaurant or bar, but it turns out that it will be a dialysis clinic. Oh well, at least it's a start.

Here's an example of one of the homes for sale. It looks like the whole row from Eagle Way to Turtle Way is being fixed up. 817 Tripoli Street, Pittsburgh PA | MLS# 877605 - Trulia. I could swear I saw one of them listed for $140K, but I guess if they get $200K it's even better for the neighborhood (even if it's worse for me ).

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by kettlepot

If the goal is historic building triage, is Spring Garden the neighborhood to fight and die for (metaphorically speaking)?

Yes. I will tell you why. Spring Garden is pre-1872. Many of those homes are representative of working class frame homes from the Civil War era or possibly earlier. Also, many of the houses in Spring Garden are detached, which is a bit different from the architectural styles of the brick row-homes in the South Side Flats, which are probably close to the same vintage. Studying the 1872 map, Spring Garden is one of the oldest surviving areas of the city. We lost the lower Hill (also one of the oldest), the residential sections downtown (the oldest), downtown Allegheny City, and the chunk of Manchester that was Chateau. We also lost most of the residential in Uptown and the Bluff, which was some of the oldest. Spring Hill and Troy Hill were not developed as early as Spring Garden, and neither were the East End neighborhoods except for parts of Lawrenceville. Polish Hill and Bloomfield were built up mostly in the 1880s-1890s. Spring Garden is a rare bird, not just for its unique architecture among city neighborhoods, but also because it is one of the oldest surviving neighborhoods. It is representative of a side of Pittsburgh that is mostly extinct.

This is just my opinion, but those brick four square neighborhoods are, architecturally speaking, a dime a dozen. You can find them in any city. Neighborhoods with architecture like Spring Garden are exclusive to our city. They represent the vernacular architecture of an era and a place that is long gone and being wiped away. But everyone thinks the big brick houses are the only ones worth saving. Whatever.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

Here's an example of one of the homes for sale. It looks like the whole row from Eagle Way to Turtle Way is being fixed up. 817 Tripoli Street, Pittsburgh PA | MLS# 877605 - Trulia. I could swear I saw one of them listed for $140K, but I guess if they get $200K it's even better for the neighborhood (even if it's worse for me ).

It's a bit hard to tell, given the City does not recognize the split between the two neighborhoods. Thus it might just be a few enterprising folks hope they can pull a fast one on transplants who hear about how East Allegheny is on the up and up. Also, comparables probably use the neighborhood as a whole - perhaps the assessment did as well, as most of the real estate activity in the neighborhood is happening on the other side of the highway.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I guess you can't see the forest for the trees. You can find all of those same issues in Shadyside. I know, because I lived there for a year, and after a while that's all I saw.

Those things exist in most neighborhoods, but not to the same extent as in that picture. The good news is that everything I listed can be easily fixed without compromising the neighborhood or buildings. Most of it could be fixed by residents with the will and free time to do so.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It's a bit hard to tell, given the City does not recognize the split between the two neighborhoods. Thus it might just be a few enterprising folks hope they can pull a fast one on transplants who hear about how East Allegheny is on the up and up. Also, comparables probably use the neighborhood as a whole - perhaps the assessment did as well, as most of the real estate activity in the neighborhood is happening on the other side of the highway.

It is right next to the bridge over the highway, so it's one of the most logical points for revitalization to start. It will be interesting to see if the homes sell, and at what price.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

This is just my opinion, but those brick four square neighborhoods are, architecturally speaking, a dime a dozen. You can find them in any city. Neighborhoods with architecture like Spring Garden are exclusive to our city. They represent the vernacular architecture of an era and a place that is long gone and being wiped away. But everyone thinks the big brick houses are the only ones worth saving. Whatever.

I think you will find many of us make better allies than antagonists, even if we have the poor taste to live in homes built after 1900.

[kettlepot]

Thanks BrianTH and AlleghenyAngel for taking the time to respond. Someday, I will have to go to Pittsburgh and see these neighborhoods for myself. Of course I live in a city that hardly has any brick Foursquares, so for me, an entire neighborhood of them would be a beauty to behold!

Now, if you want entire neighborhoods of tract ranch houses, THAT I can give you. Over, and over, and over again.

I don't quite get why gaining a Riverine park would be an underutilized asset. Parks aren't supposed to "GO" anywhere. Being in the park is your destination. And in San Diego, if your house overlooks park or open space, you instantly add $150k in value to your $350k (now $500k) house - the housing recession has hit San Diego pretty hard. We aren't talking $600 to $800k for houses anymore.

And Brian, you are correct, demolition is a one way street. When it's gone, it's gone. AAngel, Thanks for pointing out that the other neighborhoods that would have been comparable to Spring Garden are now gone. That is a worthy point.

[BrianTH]

They aren't AA's thing, but a neighborhood full of nicely-kept brick Foursquares and similar styles from that era (e.g., Hulley houses) can in fact be quite pleasant. On a national level such neighborhoods are more common overall than Victorian-era neighborhoods, but as you point out less common than post-WWII masterplanned suburbs full of ranch homes. This continuum is more or less a function of time, in two respects: population growth over time led to building more housing units in any given era, and conversely the passage of time inevitably leads to the loss of types of housing units that are no longer being built (sometimes deliberately, but also to things like fires, natural disasters, and so forth).

Anyway, I'm not against parks in general, but in this case "down the hill" from the upper level North Side communities you already have the Commons and we are in the process of developing parks along both sides of the Allegheny, and then of course there are parks "up the hill" as well, which are arguably underutilized as it is. I'd note there probably is a park premium in Pittsburgh too, but I'd guess it may be less percentage-wise than a lot of places, because for largely topographic reasons we are pretty well-endowed with parks as well as a lot more unofficial green spaces (e.g., on undevelopable slopes).

So in my view there isn't a pressing need for another big park in that area--but if really turned out in the next few decades that no one wanted to invest in Spring Garden to restore old units and infill new units, perhaps we could revisit the idea.