The Lower Hill (York, Baldwin: houses, neighborhood, renewal)

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by pman

there's a reason these projects were known as negro removal, they did little but to remove black neighborhoods from certain parts of cities. now the land still belongs to well connected people who, perhaps, lack the ability to build something interesting.

It just wasn't black neighborhoods that have bitten the dust from urban renewal over the decades. The East St. Valley is no more except for St. Boniface Church and a few dozen houses in close proximity.

In the early 1950's, a large chunk of the South Side near the current Frank B. Fuhrer Beer outlet was razed for an expansion of J&L.

How much of the Greenfield Run was lost due to the construction of the Parkway East?

[Aqua Teen Carl]

"Da Igloo" brought more history, money, and cultural significance to the city's history than the Lower Hill ever did.

[pman]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

It just wasn't black neighborhoods that have bitten the dust from urban renewal over the decades. The East St. Valley is no more except for St. Boniface Church and a few dozen houses in close proximity.

In the early 1950's, a large chunk of the South Side near the current Frank B. Fuhrer Beer outlet was razed for an expansion of J&L.

How much of the Greenfield Run was lost due to the construction of the Parkway East?

more often than not they targeted neighborhoods whose political voice was weakest. I didn't mean to imply that negro removal was the actual idea behind it, but that was the moniker, and it fit well enough. again, you can't view it in a prism, what happened to the lower hill was one of many projects that laid low inner cities across the country and more often than not, like th elower hill, they were a failuer.

Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl

"Da Igloo" brought more history, money, and cultural significance to the city's history than the Lower Hill ever did

I doubt there's much truth to that. after decades of existence, the igloo was surrounded by blight and low yield surface parking. the history is largely meaningless and so is the cultural significance. they could have built an arena somewhere else it it still would have brought money.
Aqua Teen Carl"Da Igloo" brought more history, money, and cultural significance to the city's history than the Lower Hill ever did.

the truth of the matter is ugly and this played out across the country

Many residents view a major turning point in the neighborhood's history as the 1960s, when the city of Pittsburgh displaced about 8000 residents and 400 businesses in the Lower Hill to build the Civic Arena.[4] The displaced people moved into the East Liberty and Homewood-Brushton neighborhoods, causing (white & black) middle-class families to flee these areas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_District
so, they moved 8000 largely minority residents, probably into projects (ahem, slums that ended up being far worse) and destabilized other neighborhoods all to build low yield surface parking...today you can't buy a home next to downtown and fix it up, a politically connected organization to receive taxpayer money to put back streets, utilities, etc...things that had already been there.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by pman

more often than not they targeted neighborhoods whose political voice was weakest. I didn't mean to imply that negro removal was the actual idea behind it, but that was the moniker, and it fit well enough. again, you can't view it in a prism, what happened to the lower hill was one of many projects that laid low inner cities across the country and more often than not, like th elower hill, they were a failuer.

I was just an infant in the late 50's when the lower hill came down and the Arena, Washington Plaza and Chatham Center were constructed- I can't really comment from personal experience what the conditions were in that quarter.

However, I was definitely around when PNC Park, the Alcoa headquarters and other facilities on the North Shore were built and remember the rows torn down where they play baseball today, the boarding homes on East General Robison that used to be there and other businesses and bars on Federal, Sandusky and Anderson Streets that had a date with the wrecking ball a dozen years ago.

The North Shore area just wasn't that great, but people and businesses were displaced. I was over there, I think there is some improvement, and this was the hope of the urban renewal projects on the hill 40 years previously.

I don't think you can just give up on things or condemn the idea, sometimes they work out better and sometimes not so much.

[Clint.]

That's a really cool picture! I can't remember the proposals I've seen associated with the redevelopment and don't feel like looking them up at the moment (), but one improvement I can think of is to add more high rise resiential construction than what was originally there, as what's in the photo seems to be maybe 2-3 stories max.

I've always thought the area (and the Upper Hill as well) was underutilized given its amazing proximity to Downtown, and, maybe now that the overall image of residential living Downtown is improving, new construction in the Lower Hill can benefit from that trend.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl

"Da Igloo" brought more history, money, and cultural significance to the city's history than the Lower Hill ever did.

I wouldn't be sure about the money part. The economics of urban arenas are pretty dismal.

"History" and "cultural significance" are more subjective factors. But I'll take a place full of people on a daily basis over mostly surface parking lots plus an occasional event, even if most of those people aren't making "history" by whatever standards you are applying.

[pman]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The North Shore area just wasn't that great, but people and businesses were displaced. I was over there, I think there is some improvement, and this was the hope of the urban renewal projects on the hill 40 years previously.

I don't think you appreciate the difference between displacing 8000 people and putting them into projects and destabilizing other areas and PNC Park, which displaced 11 people, 9 of whom were offered free tickets instead of stuck in public housing

Pamela Carmona will be going to PNC Park tomorrow for the Pirates game. She's getting in free -- as a guest of the Pirates.
And she'll be sitting just about where she used to live.
Carmona was one of 11 residents of the former Alcor Way row houses, which for more than 100 years occupied a site just west of Federal Street and just south of General Robinson Street.
Nine of those residents -- two others couldn't be found -- will be getting two tickets each from the Pirates for tomorrow. The 16 Alcor row houses (five were vacant) were demolished in 1999 to make way for the ballpark.

http://old.post-gazette.com/regionst...18tickets4.asp

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

I don't think you can just give up on things or condemn the idea, sometimes they work out better and sometimes not so much.

I think when the majority of projects fail on a nationwide basis you should probably give up on the idea of bulldozing entire neighborhoods willy nilly and handing land over to public housing and connected interests. the reality is that these projects were federally funded urban renewal, not specific to the city of pittsburgh. it's interesting that you bring up the north shore as the "igloo" certainly would have fit in three rivers' parking lot, there was no need to demolish the lower hill at all to fit in an arena. PNC Park is a completely different era. in fact, pnc park is part of a plan to undo the urban renewal scars and redevelop the area back into a part of the city. far be it for me to claim to know what it looked like before three rivers and the highways. does anyone have photos?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

far be it for me to claim to know what it looked like before three rivers and the highways. does anyone have photos?

Three Rivers site immediately before and during early construction:

[BrianTH]

Don't hold me to it, but I believe this 1929 picture of General Robinson is looking west into the area where Three Rivers would have gone (on the left). That's based on the address in the description (506):

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by Brookline_sylvia

That's a really cool picture! I can't remember the proposals I've seen associated with the redevelopment and don't feel like looking them up at the moment (), but one improvement I can think of is to add more high rise resiential construction than what was originally there, as what's in the photo seems to be maybe 2-3 stories max.

I've always thought the area (and the Upper Hill as well) was underutilized given its amazing proximity to Downtown, and, maybe now that the overall image of residential living Downtown is improving, new construction in the Lower Hill can benefit from that trend.

agreed completely... the area should be built as a transition zone from Downtown... density and tall buildings