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My feelings of what makes drivers bad are simply different than yours.
Yes, I just wish people would drive the speed limit or not more than 5mph over in the city, but I also know it isn't going to happen and it will continually get worse because people realize cops can't do anything about it. If people drove the speed limit in the city and suburbs the accidents would obviously be much less.
Scott, I think you grossly overestimate other's driving ability. You may be able to navigate city streets at high rates of speed, but I assure you most people can't. It is just selfish and with no regard to drive in that manner, IMHO.
Scott, I think you grossly overestimate other's driving ability. You may be able to
I don't. As a matter of fact, as I said earlier, I can't get over how troublesome it seems for most people to navigate curves, merge, and other extremely simple driving maneouvers in this region. The thing I want to point out is, people in this region are as dangerous at lower speeds as they may be at higher speeds
I mostly agree with Scott. I disagree with the notion that if everyone drove the speed limit that there would be fewer accidents. In multi-car accidents it's the variances of speed within the flow of traffic that create accidents more so than the overall rate of the speed. Likewise in single-car accidents it's inattentive driving that leads to more accidents than the overall rate of speed. 5 MPH over the limit in most instances, especially in low pedestrian areas is not a big deal, especially to attentive drivers using "smaller" cars with good brakes who are keeping safe distances. There are some areas where driving 5 MPH over the limit is slow enough to potentially cause accidents. Examples are the left lane of Blvd of the Allies between Downtown and Oakland or on the left lane of 65 between Downtown and the McKees Rocks Bridge. At the same time riding someone's bumper at 5 MPH under the speed limit approaching the tunnels during rush hour can be just as bad.
It's also things like the lack of turn signals, driving in multiple lanes, braking on the highway BEFORE an exit ramp, or not using on-ramps to match highway speed (again with the variations of speed) that I see cause accidents. I also get frustrated at people who don't understand the "zipper merge" concept (when you don't use all available lanes to a merge point and then refuse entry for another driver). It REDUCES traffic flow (ie... construction on 28), this is why they have signs posted many times that say to use all available lanes until the merge point. The concept of forcing them to "get in line with the rest of us" is silly, selfish, and most likely uninformed.
As a fellow SCCA Member (Solo II Events) I also agree with Scott that if you roll an SUV around a mild corner while not exceeding the speed limit in perfect weather conditions - the problem is your driving, not other people's perceived "fast driving". It's like me saying you shouldn't eat a Big Mac because I'm on a diet.
Driving "slow" is also not an excuse to text and drive. I also saw someone once drive 25 MPH on the Parkway with their 4-ways on so they could put on makeup. Because you're driving at a "slow" speed does not mean you are driving safe. If you drive in the left lane on the highway doing the speed limit, have no one in front of you, no one to the right of you, but are purposely blocking cars behind you from proceeding - you're the one creating the issue. You're the cog in the machine. You're not teaching them a lesson, you're teaching them to drive around you and put themselves, other cars, and you in potentially unsafe situations. It is not your responsibility to punish those drivers and instead you're enabling bad driving habits.
Driving slow in passing lanes, blocking traffic, not using turn signals - these can be just as rude, selfish, self-centered, and inconsiderate (if not more) than the offensiveness of someone passing you while exceeding the speed limit. They may (or may not) be passing you since they're nervous you might slam into them because you don't use turn signals when you change lanes - or because you're dangerously impeding the flow of traffic.
It's attentiveness and working within the flow of traffic (not trying to dictate it) that is more relevant to safe driving than overall rate of speed.
Here are some things I see on a daily basis that have little to do with speed.............................
1. People merging on the Portal Bridge...........lots of people trying to merge, and someone panics because they don't know where they are going, and what do they do? SLAM on their brakes, in the middle of rush hour. The same thing happens outbound on the Fort Pitt bridge.
2. The on ramp from Blvd of Allies on to 376. First of all, you have people riding your brakes down that off ramp, when you don't have to, because it becomes a lane. Second, the people coming down that off ramp think they have to merge IMMEDIATELY, when you don't. You have plenty of real estate to merge down the road.
3. The general use of brakes....I've never seen people use their brakes so much. I've had people tell me they can't get 25k out of their brakes.........I just hit 95k on my car and only had to replace my rears. During high traffic times, it is very unsettling to come around some of the curves inbound on 279 and see everyones brake lights go on, for no reason at all. I follow people on a daily basis who brake around simple curves knowing I would never do any such thing
4. Any major split of highways..........Bathtub area is a good example. I can't tell you how many times on a daily basis I see people in the far left lane to continue on to 376, and then all of a sudden, "whoops, I should be going North on 279". I see this every day at the ramp to the Veterans Bridge and the Duquesne Bridge.
5. I really believe there is an underlying fear of driving amongst a large percentage of natives to this area. A seeming lack of understanding directions and lack of skill behind the wheel are more dangerous than anything.
1. Blvd of the Allies/Crosstown Blvd ramp to Liberty Bridge, cars from the left lane merge without warning or signal into the right lane without warning going around that last slight curve before the straight part of Liberty Bridge.
2. Ramp from 19/51, to 376 WB going up the hill towards Green Tree. Surprisingly the multiple merge points and forks on the ramp are managed smoothly, but it is a high volume ramp which often lends to a long line of cars merging onto the Parkway. It only takes one car to merge at 35 onto the highway despite there being ample ramp length to throw the rest of the cars in harms way of traffic doing 60 MPH up the hill. Then because that lane eventually ends in Green Tree these slow mergers jump over into the middle lane (usually without a signal), which of course is the lane you just moved into so you could accelerate and not get hit by traffic, only for them to further impede traffic and drive 20 MPH slower up the hill than the traffic coming behind them.
3. Robinson Town Center to 376 EB. This enters the highway having its own lane, but it quickly disappears to exit onto 22/30 WB. The problem here is much of the traffic from this ramp takes the Exit onto 22/30 so they don't need to switch lanes. Because of this they never accelerate above 35 to 40 MPH which forces the traffic behind them to cut someone off doing 60 MPH just to be able to stay on the highway.
4. 376 WB to Robinson Town Center. People slow down to 20 MPH on the Parkway before they even get to this ramp despite it being a 2 lane ramp with plenty of braking distance. Slowing down to 35 MPH under the Speed Limit on "through lanes" of a highway is dangerous.
5. PJ McArdle Roadway from Liberty Bridge to Grandview. It's 35 MPH. Slowing down to 20 so you can look at the view while you drive is dangerous. Wait 30 seconds to get to Grandview and PARK YOUR CAR FIRST before you take your eyes off the road.
6. Golden Mile Highway. The speed limit is 45. I've never been able to go faster than 37 on this road. I don't understand why drivers drive that slow on the road. It's plenty wide and plenty safe.
7. Driving up hill in a snow storm on a straight road. An SUV with 4WD might be able to keep its forward traction at 3MPH, most cars will not. Please be courteous to these non 4WD drivers and not send them skating backwards down a hill.
I don't. As a matter of fact, as I said earlier, I can't get over how troublesome it seems for most people to navigate curves, merge, and other extremely simple driving maneouvers in this region. The thing I want to point out is, people in this region are as dangerous at lower speeds as they may be at higher speeds
Do you know the percentage of people that use their brakes going UP the hill through the zoo to negotiate the fist bend? I would say 80%. That is going up a hill. People don't know how to take their foot off the gas and coast up to that bend and then accelerate through it, but no they are riding their brake because they are going too fast and can't seem to see 100 feet in front of themselves to anticipate. Odd.
The list you created are dangerous, but usually not deadly. The deadly stuff is mostly due to people driving much too fast.
Ah people can complain all they want. I see people pass on the left and right on Highland while I am on the right riding my bike. They don't care and of course I catch them at the next red light. If they make that red light, I catch them at the next one. 100% of the time. Morons.
Stats are not even necessary to prove that the drivers in Pgh are out of control. Just go out on the road and experience the madness for yourself. Tailgaiting, speeding, agressiveness, anger, horn blowing and flipping the finger out of the window. Who even does this anymore? It's so classless. A merge sign is merely decoration. The typical Pittsburgher's way of merging into heavy traffic is to speed up, cross over the solid line and agressively push themselves in between the other cars instead of taking turns like most civilized drivers. It's the culture of the area. I blame some of it on the hillbilly demographic who drive massive trucks, usually covered with stickers of deer heads, guns, Steeler and Sunoco logos. I returned to Pgh briefly after living in Chicago for 11 years and was shocked by the brutish behavior, on and off the roads.
I'm interested in knowing possible causes for this. Are we in that much of a hurry, especially compared to somewhere fast-paced like DC? Was it changes in the demographics of Pittsburgh, people just getting fed up, or something else?
I actually have a good answer for this...as I understand it, a sizeable chunk of DC-area transplants have found their way to the 'Burgh over the course of the past several years. Only stands to reason that people who are/were born and bred up in one area are more than likely to take their habits with them wherever they go. What's this got to do with the point at hand? Those of y'all who done been down to and in/around the DC area know full well. Fast-paced area; patience, espwcially on the roads, is virtually non-existent—and actually, that's symptomatic if not outright stereotypical of the northern east coast region in general (DMV, Philly, NJ/NY, CT, Boston—that area). All that said...if you wish to see some truly bad driving, take a trip down to what, in my professional opinion, is the Paragon of Bad Driving: Kentucky.
Now that that's all out the way...
...I'm a Florida native, lived in the 'Burgh for four years, live in Indianapolis now (though that may change soon), and have had stops in the Philly area, Virginia, and Texas mixed up in there. I'm a professional truck driver now (hence what the "professional opinion" referenced earlier ), and I see it everyday, everywhere. And without even factoring in location or typography, the seeds of bad driving are planted in the learning stage i.e. new drivers either developing bad habjts or not employing good ones (the whole "not using signals" thing is the best example of this). But even aside from that, the two common factors I see in the worst drivers are these: inattentiveness, and indecisiveness.
Even more than not even being aware of the total picture on the road (which, to be fair, until you've been trained to see that total picture, most motorists only see about 30% of what's going on around them...and probably know a lesser pertentage than that), the biggest threat is pople simply not paying attention at all, let alone knowing what to pay attention to. I'm sure you've all seen that knucklehead next to you on the road just yakking away at that handheld cellular (that's a HUGE epidemic out here in Indianapolis, even amongst the law enforcement), or in their rearview putting on makeup, not paying a lick to what's going on. That's the very definition of inattentiveness...but that can also be extended to motorists simply not knowing how to identify potential hazards before they become emergencies. This leads to the second thing: indecisiveness. This is where the erratic (and IMPROPER) lane changes, slamming of the brakes, oversteering, and all that comes into play. It's one thing to be able to identify potential hazards; it's quite another to know how to react to them properly. Sadly, most just don't know how to do that, and that by and large is what leads to collisions. None of that takes into account speed, lane control, or space management, which could be a thread all its own.
But...back to the original premise of this thread...I won't say 'Burgh area drivers are bad, but then again I haven't been there in over four years. I guarantee you, though, y'all ain't worse than motorists (I won't even dignify them by calling them "drivers") out here in Indianapolis....and nowhere NEAR as bad as Kentucky. Hopefully that makes some of y'all feel better.
Do you know the percentage of people that use their brakes going UP the hill through the zoo to negotiate the fist bend? I would say 80%. That is going up a hill.
We drive that hill all the time, and yes I see people using their brakes going up hill.
Location: About 10 miles north of Pittsburgh International
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Do you know the percentage of people that use their brakes going UP the hill through the zoo to negotiate the fist bend? I would say 80%. That is going up a hill. People don't know how to take their foot off the gas and coast up to that bend and then accelerate through it, but no they are riding their brake because they are going too fast and can't seem to see 100 feet in front of themselves to anticipate. Odd.
You guys are whining and whining about people using their brakes around that curve.
A)Take a look at it on GoogleEarth. From the bottom of the hill there's better than a thousand foot line of sight, because it's generally straight, but once you get to that bend, the line of sight distance drops to nearer a hundred feet. Did it ever occur to you that people might be slowing down so that they don't, say, run you over on your bike as they round the curve?
B) The speed limit in city parks is 25 mph, unless otherwise posted. How much accelerating through that bend are you going to want to do, Mr. Why-don't-they-enforce-the-speed-limit-in-the-city ?
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Morons.
), and I see it everyday, everywhere. And without even factoring in location or typography, the seeds of bad driving are planted in the learning stage i.e. new drivers either developing bad habjts or not employing good ones (the whole "not using signals" thing is the best example of this). But even aside from that, the two common factors I see in the worst drivers are these: inattentiveness, and indecisiveness.
