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My wife and I are considering relocating to Pittsburgh in the near future. We've looked around the area and absolutely fell in love with West Allegheny and the Mexican War Streets. We had a look this past weekend and really liked what the area has to offer. The homes are amazing for the price and the area looks safe. We also love the park nearby. With that being said, here are a few things that are big question marks for me.
- Public school system seems to be below average. Not really a big fan of sending them to private school.
- The neighborhood we looked at seemed safe, but I've heard that the north side can be dangerous and some of the areas a bit outside both neighborhoods seemed dilapidated.
- I didn't see many families in the area, although it was a quiet street. Just wondering if we would be the only family with kids in the neighborhood.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, especially from someone who lives in the area.
- Public school system seems to be below average. Not really a big fan of sending them to private school.
Even by city standards, the public schools in those areas are crappy. Not to mention segregated - basically no one white sends their kids to the local schools. There is a magnet option on the North Side however, Allegheny K-5 (and Allegheny 6-8 for the middle school years) which is better - I know at least one poster planned to send his child there (dunno if they started this year). It's still 70% black though, and it lags behind the East End magnets in performance, so many people who do choose the magnet system tend to drift more towards the east of the city. Of course, nothing stops you from living in the North Side and sending your kid to East End magnets.
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Originally Posted by mlv124
- The neighborhood we looked at seemed safe, but I've heard that the north side can be dangerous and some of the areas a bit outside both neighborhoods seemed dilapidated.
The North Side has been quieting down a lot over the last ten years. Central North Side (which is the neighborhood the Mexican War Streets are part of) is pretty typical in terms of safety for a city neighborhood. It'a a block-by block area overall though - the core of the MWS is very safe, but as you head up away from the park, or towards Federal, it gets a bit dicier. Allegheny West has higher crime, but this is partially because it has a business district and not a lot of residents - I'd inquire to someone who lives there to see how much it really crimps their style.
As to elsewhere in that area, Manchester has some crime, but is pretty similar to Central North Side, with good and bad blocks. East Allegheny (on the far side of the park) has a lot of petty crime - highest in the city for any residential neighborhood. California-Kirkbride is a ghetto, but pretty quiet due to mostly being demolished.
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Originally Posted by mlv124
- I didn't see many families in the area, although it was a quiet street. Just wondering if we would be the only family with kids in the neighborhood.
The neighborhoods you are interested in are more empty nester/DINK territory than places many (white, middle class) families settle. That said, I do see local parents with kids in the park, and I would have been thrilled if I could have found a house to move to with my family in that area.
I just had lunch with a friend that lives there and we discussed this very topic. He has lived there for the better part of a decade and is the sort of guy that knows everyone. From what he said that recently some families, by his count, about 12 have chosen to remain there when their kids are old enough to go to school. He went on to say that the kids are going to a lot of different schools. This wasn't always the case he said that a few years ago the only kids that lived there were kids who weren't old enough to go to school and that when the kids started going to school the parents moved.
It's worth mentioning that those neighborhoods are close to a lot of kid friendly attractions. Within a short walk or very short drive you have the Children's Museum, National Aviary, Allegheny Commons and North Shore parks, Carnegie Science Center, the stadiums, and the water steps.
It is a great little area and I love the architecture, but I would have to go the private school route, if I was going to move there. Have a look at private school options and look at the numbers if it makes sense to you. Another option is Aspinwall, which has a urban feel somewhat and a much better school on every level. I prefer Allegheny West and the War Streets in about every way except the school situation. I wish I had better news regarding that, but I have to be honest about it. City schools down that way have a lot of issues. We are talking about Northview Heights and projects in Fineview I believe. It is a vast improvement over the years I lived down there on Perry Hilltop. I used to wonder if today was the day I would get shot off my motorcycle when riding up Federal Street. Talk about a mess of a street back then which was right there in the War Streets.
- Public school system seems to be below average. Not really a big fan of sending them to private school.
As I have possibly said over one hundred times on this forum (not your fault -- this is just a well-worn topic of conversation): Looking at the Pittsburgh Public Schools, which consists of something like 70 individual schools, as one monolithic entity is senseless. Yes, as a whole, the average stats are not great -- just as how, on average, the income of the average Pittsburgher is lower than the national average... And yet, Shadyside and Squirrel Hill (with incomes well above average) exist, and are substantial parts of the city. The fact that the average skews low doesn't mean that there aren't substantial highs -- and in the context of Pittsburgh Public Schools, that means many of the magnet programs, and even the gifted programs within neighborhood schools, produce remarkable results, generally akin to those of their suburban peers (and with the added element of socioeconomic heterogeneity and easier access to cultural offerings and things like public transit that spur early independence).
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- The neighborhood we looked at seemed safe, but I've heard that the north side can be dangerous and some of the areas a bit outside both neighborhoods seemed dilapidated.
... Similarly, saying that "the north side" at large is dangerous... means literally nothing. What happens in Manchester doesn't really have any effect on the safety and security of the people in Summer Hill, in the same way that Point Breeze borders on Homewood and Polish Hill borders on the Hill District, yet you rarely hear about trouble arising from that proximity.
That said, there is more socioeconomic diversity in the Northside neighborhoods in general -- even in well-heeled areas like Allegheny West and the Mexican War Streets -- than virtually anywhere else in the city. And sometimes -- just by virtue of people not being able to pay for the upkeep -- that does translate to parts of, e.g., the War Streets looking a bit more rundown than you'd likely ever see in Shadyside. People on the War Streets Facebook group sometimes report neighborhood kids throwing rocks and things of that nature. All in all, I suppose it comes down to your tolerance for the quirks and unexpected twists of "city life." Never knowing what's going to be happening on the street from one day to the next -- the spontaneity inherent in so many people living in such a small space -- is personally one of my absolute favorite elements of living in an urban environment, and 95% of the time it's a positive. I prefer taking that 5% of annoying stuff to the Prozac-y life of having 100% control over an unchanging and unstimulating environment. Some prefer the latter -- different strokes.
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- I didn't see many families in the area, although it was a quiet street. Just wondering if we would be the only family with kids in the neighborhood.
Families with kids are not as prominent in this area as they are in, again, Squirrel Hill, etc., but it's certainly not out of the ordinary. Brian O'Neill, a columnist for the Post-Gazette, often talks about raising children in Allegheny West, sending them to the neighborhood school (Allegheny K-5), etc.
You're almost certainly going to find a lot of alarmist responses to this post, because people will make the same logical errors I talk about in my responses: (1) overgeneralizing Pittsburgh Public Schools; (2) overgeneralizing the Northside (or the terrifying city at large); and (3) insinuating that it is criminal to raise children in such an environment. I would suggest taking these comments with a grain of salt and consulting actual members of these communities (e.g., on the Facebook Allegheny West / War Streets group, etc.). Enjoy!
Families with kids are not as prominent in this area as they are in, again, Squirrel Hill, etc., but it's certainly not out of the ordinary. Brian O'Neill, a columnist for the Post-Gazette, often talks about raising children in Allegheny West, sending them to the neighborhood school (Allegheny K-5), etc.
Interesting you bring up Squirrel Hill as a comparison to MWS or Allegheny West. Talk about different parts of the city. IMHO, Squirrel Hill isn't "urban" at all. Heck, homes in Aspinwall are closer together and at least you get a good school district. I put Allegheny West and the Mexican War Streets at a different level and I mean that in a very good way. You can walk to downtown Pittsburgh from there with ease and enjoy dinner and a show. It is walkable! It has the beautiful rivers so close. Bike paths all over the place. Want to go to a baseball game? Walk there! Squirrel Hill isn't at all connected to downtown Pittsburgh. Allegheny West and the MWS certainly are and that is a huge positive. I live as close to the downtown as Squirrel Hill and I probably have a better bike commute and car commute in.
If someone is considering Squirrel Hill, I would recommend Aspinwall if they have kids as another option. If someone wants to walk to the city and really use it all the time, AW and the MWS are awesome locations. So are parts of the South Side, but I would rather live in the AW area.
My wife and I bought a home in the War Streets a little over 5 years ago now. We absolutely love it and do not regret our decision at all. Since our purchase we've had two boys, now 4 and 2. They've known no other home or neighborhood and, barring any completely unforeseen or unfortunate circumstance, won't until they go off to college.
I actually look at the three northside neighborhoods surrounding the Commons as essentially one neighborhood. You can comfortably walk to anywhere within Allegheny West, Allegheny City Central and East Allegheny (Deutchtown). I think it's the best way to compare the amenities offered with those of other areas of the City.
I'd be more than happy to answer any specific questions that you may have, feel free to re-post of even PM me. As for the questions you already posted:
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Originally Posted by mlv124
- Public school system seems to be below average. Not really a big fan of sending them to private school.
I think this actually highlights a strength of large, urban school districts, namely - choice. While it's true that some of the neighborhood schools in the area, notably King, do not do well by certain measurements, you are by no means locked in to sending your kids there, as you would be in certain smaller, suburban districts. The number of educational options available to them and the tie-ins with various City institutions can really make for a unique and varied education.
Personally, my 4 year old now attends a PPS pre-K at the Children's Museum. The current plan is for him and his brother to attend the Allegheny Traditional Academy which will suit our purposes absolutely fine. Our household income would comfortably support private school, but that's a choice that neither myself or my wife feels compelled to make. We have neighbors who have had and continue to have very positive experiences with ATA, along with a number of other City magnet options. Anecdotally, I work with someone who's wife is a teacher at ATA but they live in the North Hills S.D. She has told me that, but for geographic disassociation with their friends, she would have preferred to send her kids to ATA. I do not feel that I am in any way sacrificing my kids education by living where we do.
I could get off on a somewhat tangential diatribe on how the most important factors in education are present in the home and by all measurements my kids will do just fine in PPS, but I will avoid it. Don't get me started on the house value Ponzi-scheme which revolves around suburban school district spending and the importance of imprecise rankings...but I digress.
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- The neighborhood we looked at seemed safe, but I've heard that the north side can be dangerous and some of the areas a bit outside both neighborhoods seemed dilapidated.
When we moved in I honestly thought I was moving into a much rougher neighborhood than I wound up buying in. The old line used to be that everything south of Jacksonia was fine and it got sketchier as you moved up the hill. While that's still true, that line has moved several blocks further north.
You will find crime there as you would with any urban neighborhood. There are random thefts, bikes, packages, etc, but they're noteworthy enough to be commented on. There's very little in the way of violent crime and less now than there was 5 years ago.
Most of the perceptions of the north side as particularly dangerous comes from perceptions which were formed 30 years ago. Also, the "north side" tends to get grouped together often, so a shooting 5 miles away from my house is reported as happening on the "north side", painting with a broad brush. I also think that because Police headquarters is over there, a lot of reporters do a stand up in front of the building, talk about some particularly violent crime which happened elsewhere and then report "live from the north side..."
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- I didn't see many families in the area, although it was a quiet street. Just wondering if we would be the only family with kids in the neighborhood.
We're here. I thought that I've detected an uptick in strollers in recent years but that might just be me as a Dad now programmed to look for them. There are a bunch of parents groups (Moms of the War Streets, etc.) that help bring everybody together. Honestly, I've found it is a little more difficult to connect with other parents since the neighborhood, unlike many suburbs, isn't necessarily designed specifically to raise kids, but once you find us, we're everywhere .
Other random thoughts:
There is some lingering socioeconomic tensions within the neighborhood which sometime are unfortunately devolved along racial line, although not exclusively so. They're largely under the surface but do rear their ugly heads over issues like the expansion of the historic district. It's largely the story within any gentrifying neighborhood.
I sound like a broken record, and even my faith is beginning to flag a bit, but once the Garden Theater block is completed, at least partially, it will really change the perception of the area.
The biggest plus for us though, without a doubt, is the ability to use our cars as little as possible. My wife and I both work Downtown and our commute involves a double stroller, a stop at pre-school and a stop at day care (in town) (wind chill cut off of 25 degrees). I only drive my car when work requires an out of town trip. Both my wife and I are happier with this reality than we ever expected to be. I'm not sure how to quantify the increased happiness and time together as a benefit for my kids, but I know it's there and I know we wouldn't be willing to sacrifice it. Additionally, one of the best things statistically that you can do for your kids is limit the amount of time they're in a car seat. It's by far the most dangerous thing most kids do each day.
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I would suggest taking these comments with a grain of salt and consulting actual members of these communities (e.g., on the Facebook Allegheny West / War Streets group, etc.). Enjoy!
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