Pittsburgh - Is $13,000 enough? (York, Wilkinsburg: best neighborhoods, apartments, renters)

[RatKing216]

Hello everyone on CD. A quick question... I am looking to start a new life for myself and plan on planting roots in a brand new place. I'll be honest here - I'm from Milwaukee, WI and my first choice is honestly (I know you're all going to hate me) Cleveland, Ohio simply because A) I love it there and B) The Cost of Living is ridiculously cheap!!! I have however thought of moving somewhere a little different. Like Pittsburgh* for instance. Please note: I have started this exact thread for other cities I am looking at as well. I am simply trying to cover all of my bases so I know I am making the correct choice financially as well as emotionally. So here is my situation (and this may very well sound stupid), I am single, 34 years old, and don't have a college degree. I do not have a vehicle, nor do I plan to get one as that will save me a lot of money. I will be moving with a total of $13,000 which is my total "Life's Savings". I will be coming with no job (unless I get one when I take vacation at work in April) and am willing to work ANYWHERE as long as it provides income. I work in a factory setting now and I make $11.92/hr and would like to match that (if not) exceed that. Also please note that I have very little debt. My range as far as rent goes is NO HIGHER than $600/month (insert laugh here). That's all I feel comfortable paying anyway. I am open to living in a rooming house (Room For Rent) of sorts to begin my new life if need be. But I DO NOT want to do a Roommate situation. Now if this sounds completely insane and downright undo-able, than please let me know so I can scratch Pittsburgh off of my list. Also note: I need to stay within the city limits so all suburbs are completely OUT of the question. I need a "safe" area with a low amount of drug/violent crime activity. To give an overall idea of my "comfort level", I have lived in Chicago's Uptown as well as (where I now stay) Avenues West in Milwaukee.
So the bottom line questions are...
1) Is $13,000 enough? I would like to get a place right when I get to town, so I will probably pay 6-12 months of rent right off the bat. That will take a large chunk ($6k or so) of the $13k, but will give me up to a year to recoup that money.
2) How "transplant friendly" would you say Pittsburgh is?
3) Is Pittsburgh actually doable without a car, or is it simply better to have one? How reliable is the public transit? Especially late at night if I do go out to a club or something?
4) City Life/Urban Decay: Does Pittsburgh feel like a real city? I'm not saying it has to be New York, but it has to have a “hustle & bustle” feel to it. High pedestrian/vehicle traffic, a nightlife, and overall feel of urban living is what I’m after. Also, I find Urban Decay/Ghettos to be beautiful (in a weird way), but I don't want to be engulfed by it (think Detroit). Are there a good amount of these areas to see in Pittsburgh?
5) The big question (Yes I am opening this can of worms)... Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh? Putting any bias feelings aside for a moment, which one of the two cities would you feel is a better choice for me? City/Urban Living, Urban Decay, COL/QOL, Overall Safety, Job Market, Dating Scene, Nightlife, ect. I seemed to get a lot more of a true city feel in Cleveland, but I seemed to meet nicer people in Pittsburgh.
I don't know if this is coming across as a crazy idea or just simply a good plan. I will say one thing though... I NEVER want to return to Wisconsin again!!! That's ultimately the plan. I need to grow up, and start a life for myself somewhere completely new.

*Please Note: I have no family or friends in Pittsburgh. Although not that big of an issue for me, this may play a small part in responses as I won't have any direct "support system". Please try not to factor this in too heavily. I have been to Pittsburgh before, but only for a few hours.

[ferraris]

$13,000 is more than enough to cover moving costs. I would recommend against paying 6 - 12 months rent ahead of time. That probably won't be necessary. Despite recent cuts, we still have decent public transportation and people can and do live without a car. Your biggest obstacle will be finding a job. You sound very open to working anywhere, and that attitude will help you. But it may take a bit to find an unskilled job that pays $11 an hour. There's obviously warehouses and factories, but they are often not on buslines and have more people competing for them. If you're open to working at gas stations, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. you won't have any problem.

The East End is the best place for living car free, but it's also the most expensive part of the city. But $600 rent is not unheard of there and you may be able to find something. After that the most convenient places in your price range are the North Side and T-communities. The T is our light rail line and places like Beechview and Dormont would have apartments in your price range and are nice safe areas with walkable business districts. The lower north side is also in your price range, and has lots of businesses of it's own and is walking distance to downtown. You could potentially live without even having to get a monthly bus pass. Specifically you'd want to look in the neighborhoods of Manchester, Allegheny West, The Mexican War Streets, and Deutschtown. I pay less than $600 for a very nice 1 bedroom in the Mexican War Streets right now. Since you mentioned that you like a little bit of decay, I think the North Side is a great target neighborhood for you. Concentrate on Deutschtown first and foremost since is is very walkable and has a grocery store.

Pittsburgh has a lot of bustle. Downtown on a weekday honestly feels just like Manhattan to me; the only difference is that Manhattan keeps going on and on whereas Downtown Pittsburgh is a pretty small area. There's plenty of nice walkable neighborhoods that offer a different vibe. The South Side is virtually unrivaled as far as density of night life goes. Only Bourbon Street in New Orleans and Vegas can outshine it.

To keep it short, Cleveland will be a little cheaper, but Pittsburgh will offer a much better experience, especially without a car.

[TechCom]

Originally Posted by RatKing216

Hello everyone on CD. A quick question...

You asked a lot of questions. Most of which could be answered by reading and searching through the forum. Everyone is basically going to give you the same advice. You should get a job prior to moving here. Even if that just means some (dime a dozen) retail job, you would be better off.

For the hard numbers. Is $13,000 enough? It depends on your commitment. If you are willing to work two (bad) jobs, while trying to get work in your field, then yes. If your going to spend 6 months just putting in applications, then no.

[BrianTH]

Answering selected subquestions:

(1) You can live without a car here, but it will limit your possible live/work combinations, which potentially is a problem if you are moving here without a job as well. It could be fine, but it would be somewhat risky.

(2) Pittsburgh can be reasonably urban in the non-high-rise sense, and there are actually some fairly affordable urban neighborhoods which are also pretty safe, which is nice.

(3) Pittsburgh is very "Rust Belt Chic", and you can find lots of old stuff in every imaginable state from ruins to recently renovated to in-use-but-worn and on and on. In fact that third category--not at all shiny and new, but still being put to good use--is almost a specialty of ours.

[groar]

depending on your definition of "engulfed", you could do well with your budget and needs in wilkinsburg. you're never all that engulfed in anything in metro pittsburgh - the neighborhoods are small and distinct. for instance this place (full disclosure: the landlord is an acquaintance of mine): Charming Vintage Apartment, Wilkinsburg (avail. August) is very convenient by bus (including express buses that drive on a dedicated "busway") to the major employment/entertainment centers in town. this lady has a lot of properties in this price range, takes good care of them, and is very passionate about the neighborhood. you should hold on to her number if you decide wilkinsburg might work for you. we also have lower personal income tax here, making it nice for renters (higher property taxes tend to cancel that out for homeowners).

it's definitely a sketchy area in a lot of ways, with high crime and a lot of vacant buildings but there is also a great community here, with urban farms, art projects and community gardens popping up all over the place. there are also very different neighborhoods in wilkinsburg - i'd say where that apartment is is in the middle. there are much fancier/safer areas but also much scarier and more bombed out areas. there is always a lot of activity in the street, in a good way, around here. i've lived in the area for 5 years without any problems. but it's a matter of personal comfort and space.

it is important to note that there are impending major cuts to the transit system due to happen next month that may still be averted but have not been yet.

i haven't spent enough time in cleveland to get a really good sense of it but in general i like the feel of pittsburgh better. cleveland seems to have better restaurant options overall (and an amazing public market, which there is no equivalent of here). i've never used public transit in cleveland so i can't comment on that.

i think you have a lot of options in pittsburgh for $600 a month, as long as you're ok with a small apartment or a less desirable area.

[TheYO]

I moved here about two months ago when I graduated college, so I can provide you a transplant's (early) perspective of the city. I'm originally from NE Ohio, so I know a good amount about Cleveland as well.

Originally Posted by RatKing216

I have lived in Chicago's Uptown as well as (where I now stay) Avenues West in Milwaukee.

I'm pretty familiar with Chicago. Parts of Uptown can be pretty sketchy. I don't know exactly where you were there, and I know Buena Park is a completely different world from the Wilson stop despite being just a few blocks away. If you were comfortable living there, you'll be comfortable in the fast majority of neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. It's a very safe area overall. Even the worst neighborhoods here would seem like Lincoln Park compared to the worst of Chicago like Garfield Park or Englewood.

Originally Posted by RatKing216

1) Is $13,000 enough? I would like to get a place right when I get to town, so I will probably pay 6-12 months of rent right off the bat. That will take a large chunk ($6k or so) of the $13k, but will give me up to a year to recoup that money.

You can definitely move here for less than $13,000. I moved here the day after I graduated with about $4,000 to my name. Granted, I had a job lined up, so I knew I'd be receiving a paycheck after a couple weeks. You should definitely have a job lined up before you come here, even if it is just a retail one. Most landlords will want to see some source of income before they let you sign a lease. You shouldn't pay 6-12 months rent right off the bat. All I had to pay before receiving my keys were my first month's rent and a security deposit equal to a month's rent. Depending on your credit, you may also be asked to pay your last month's rent upfront as well, so $1800 total if you got a place for $600. There's no need to spend half of your savings on the apartment when you first get here.

Originally Posted by RatKing216

2) How "transplant friendly" would you say Pittsburgh is?

Pretty transplant friendly. There's definitely a unique culture that exists here that may be a little hard to grasp for someone who is completely unfamiliar with the region. There's even a unique Pittsburghese dialect here. So far for me the people have been friendly and helpful, but that'll probably change once football season starts (I'm a Browns fan ). The city has a live and let live attitude, so people here don't really get into other people's business.

Originally Posted by RatKing216

3) Is Pittsburgh actually doable without a car, or is it simply better to have one? How reliable is the public transit? Especially late at night if I do go out to a club or something?

It's simply better to have one, but going carless here is doable although it definitely wouldn't be as easy/pleasant as being carless in Chicago. No car definitely limits the neighborhoods you can live in. I'm probably biased because I live here, but I think the Southside is the best neighborhood to live in without a car. There's a grocery store, plenty of shops and restaurants and the best nightlife the city has to offer. Use Walk Score to see the best neighborhoods to live in without a car.

My girlfriend and I share a car, so I rely on public transit to get to/from work. I'm not a big fan of the public transit system here at all. It's not bad in the morning, my bus is always on time and not too crowded. It's awful at the end of the day though. By the time the bus gets to my stop, it's usually too full to even stop, so I'm left waiting at least another 10 minutes for another bus to come. Sometimes even that one is too full to stop as well. It's just a frustrating process. Check out the Port Authority website to see which bus routes service different neighborhoods.

There is a light rail system (the T), but honestly it's pretty useless to get around the actual city. It's more for people who live in the southern suburbs to get downtown for work. There are only a few stops in the city, most of which are Downtown and on the North Shore near the Pirates and Steelers stadiums.

Late night public transit is even worse. The buses stop running around 12 or 1, so you'll be forced to call a cab if you like staying out til close. Oh, and notice I said call a cab and not hail one. Depending on where you're at, it can be difficult to impossible to hail a cab on the street. It's nothing like Chicago where the Blue and Red lines run all night, plus night owl bus routes.

Originally Posted by RatKing216

4) City Life/Urban Decay: Does Pittsburgh feel like a real city? I'm not saying it has to be New York, but it has to have a “hustle & bustle” feel to it. High pedestrian/vehicle traffic, a nightlife, and overall feel of urban living is what I’m after. Also, I find Urban Decay/Ghettos to be beautiful (in a weird way), but I don't want to be engulfed by it (think Detroit). Are there a good amount of these areas to see in Pittsburgh?

Pittsburgh does feel like a real city. Obviously certain neighborhoods have more a city feel to them than others. Without a doubt, the best nightlife spot is Carson Street in the Southside Flats. Carson is pretty much 20 blocks of shops, restaurants and bars. If you're a 20something (or just want to party like one), the Southside is the place to be on the weekends. I live here, and it's amazing how it transforms from the daytime to night. Imagine smaller versions of the packed bars in Wrigleyville, but a lot more of them. A lot more cars on the road as well.

You MIGHT be able to find a small one-bedroom in the Southside for $600 (plus utilities). I only had two weeks to find a place here, and I managed to find a decent one for $675 (plus utilities). Since you aren't already here, Craigslist is probably your best bet to see what the rental market is like. My place is definitely one of the least expensive places in the Southside. There are one bedrooms in some of the newer developments here, just a few blocks from me, that go for double what I'm paying.

Downtown is pretty small, and outside of Market Square and the Cultural District, there's not much to do there. Like a lot of other cities' downtowns it empties out after the workday ends, except for the Cultural District where all the theaters are located.

There are a good amount of urban decaying areas around the city. Lots of decay from the old steel days, and parts of the city have an almost old-world feel to them. Some ghettoes as well, but nothing like the South or West Side of Chicago.

Originally Posted by RatKing216

5) The big question (Yes I am opening this can of worms)... Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh? Putting any bias feelings aside for a moment, which one of the two cities would you feel is a better choice for me? City/Urban Living, Urban Decay, COL/QOL, Overall Safety, Job Market, Dating Scene, Nightlife, ect. I seemed to get a lot more of a true city feel in Cleveland, but I seemed to meet nicer people in Pittsburgh.

Very good question. As much as people like to play up the Cleveland-Pittsburgh rivalry, IMO the cities have much more in common than they do differences. Both are Rust Belt cities trying to reinvent themselves for the 21st Century. IMO, Pittsburgh has done much better at this thus far than Cleveland, but Cleveland is still a fine city.
I'll do a quick rundown of your categories and provide my opinion as to which city is better in each.

City/Urban living: Cleveland
Urban Decay: Cleveland has more of it IMO.
COL: Cleveland, but Pittsburgh is still very affordable.
QOL: Tough call. I'm a fan of both cities.
Overall Safety: Pittsburgh. Obviously it depends on which neighborhood you're in, but overall Pittsburgh is much safer than Cleveland. Parts of the East Side of Cleveland are some of the most dangerous streets in the country.
Job Market: Tough to say. It really depends on the industry. I guess Pittsburgh probably has a better market overall though.
Nightlife: Pittsburgh. Nothing in Cleveland comes close to Carson Street. W 6th in Cleveland is probably the closest thing.
Dining/Restaurant options: Cleveland by far.
Dating Scene: I have a girlfriend, so I don't have any experience with that. Pittsburgh has a better nightlife, so use that as a guide. However, I think Cleveland has a much better restaurant scene.
Public Transit: Cleveland, but it still can't hold a candle to Chicago.

Both cities are great, and both are very affordable places to live. I've never looked for apartments in Cleveland, so I don't know exactly what $600 would get you. I imagine it'd be a little easier to find a place in a desirable neighborhood with that budget in Cleveland than in Pittsburgh. No car definitely limits your options in both cities though.

[Bong477]

1) 13k should be enough if you are responsible with your money. Why pay all your rent up front though, that makes no sense unless its the only way you can get a lease with no job. Getting a job before you move is always a good idea, but sometimes easier said than done.
2) Pgh is reasonably transplant friendly. Took about a year and a half before it grew on me. Now I love it here and came back by choice after a few years away.
3) Highly depends on where you live and work. I could not imagine living here without a car. Getting a cheap used car or a cheap lease would be something to strongly consider.
4) A lot of the city is pretty urban. There is a fair amount of decay in parts.
5) I personally wouldn't consider living anywhere in Ohio.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

Your biggest obstacle will be finding a job. You sound very open to working anywhere, and that attitude will help you. But it may take a bit to find an unskilled job that pays $11 an hour. There's obviously warehouses and factories, but they are often not on buslines and have more people competing for them. If you're open to working at gas stations, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. you won't have any problem.

Agree. Of everything listed, I also think matching the $11.92/hour for factory work could be your biggest challenge. There's plenty of warehouse work in the city, but not much light or heavy manufacturing. Unfortunately the warehouse work usually pays under $10/hr.

There are jobs (e.g. barista) that can get you close to $11.92/hr (including tips) but unless you've got special skills (e.g. can operate a forklift, welding experience), it could be very challenging finding a factory/warehouse job w/o needing a car.

There are a couple of agencies that specialize in light industrial temp positions (Gregg is one), so you could check them out for an idea of where those jobs actually are in relation to the city.