Lawrenceville (Pittsburgh, Butler, North Versailles: 2014, house, buy)

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

Short of tearing down Allegheny Center, there is nowhere for the NS commercial districts to expand. Plus, the type of people who would live on the NS will never want the bars and clubs that make up so much of what's on Carson. How is the NS closer? It's not closer to where I am.

California-Kirkbride has a lot of room for potential expansion. Even some parts of Manchester do (Chateau street). But it would take some serious large scale investment to make it happen.

I have to agree that nowhere in the Northside has anything approaching the Southside's 20+ blocks.

[Mtl-Cns]

A few comments from this discussion:

1- I don't understand the discussion of the North Side "replacing" the South Side at all. I certainly would be in support of development in one neighborhood that would cannabalize progress that has happened in another neighborhood. I would hope that future development on the North Side would compliment the progress that we have seen recently in the East and the South.

2- I'm not sure that the real estate market in Lawrenceville is ready to top off anytime soon. It seems like new amenities are frequently appearing in the neighborhood and I really think that once some of the industrial land near the river is redeveloped in residential it will eliminate the temptation to demolish historic structures to satiate the demands for housing. In addition, despite the size of the houses, central lawrenceville has to contain one of the largest swaths of 19th century brick row home architecture outside of the north side, but perhaps even more in tact. As each one continues to be renovated I cannot foresee how that would not keep values in the neighborhood from rising.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by bluecarebear

The SS is on the decline. The growth and new building is all on the NS.

I concur with others that this statement doesn't seem based in reality. The North Side has a fairly constant low level of rehabs happening in Central North Side and West Deutschtown. There's also the new infill along Federal Street which is now moving onto some side streets. And of course there's the Garden Theatre block, which is starting to finally see some construction. There's the North Shore crap, but I don't think of that as really being part of the same neighborhood. There might be a lot of upside potential yet, but it's not where "all the building" is right now.

Contrast it to South Side. Two new hotels were recently announced for opposite ends of Carson Street. Hot Metal Flats will be adding around 300 more apartment units. There's several new office buildings under construction on the eastern side of the neighborhood as well. This is not the sign of a declining neighborhood - this is the sign of one continuing to pick up steam. IMHO the high level of development will continue until all the old industrial/institutional mega-parcels are built out, which could take another 10 years or so. The only thing there that's really topped out in terms of development is the appreciation of existing housing, as so many of the rowhouses are small and rather undistinguished.

[friendsheep]

Don't forget about the other large apartment complex + potential grocery store going into the current unused concrete lot just on the west end of the Southside Works (can't think of the developer or name, but renderings were in a recent planning commission PDF). The Brix @ 26th & Carson was recently opened as well and I believe is fully leased. The Southside is only going to continue to grow and improve over the next 5 or 10 years.

[mikeindeland]

I lived in Lawrenceville in the late 1950's and it from your description it sounds like not a thing has changed! I was quite young then, but I do remember my mom taking me to Arsenal Park to play. I fell into the pond once. We lived on 42nd Street, a couple of blocks up from Butler, and I remember going to the Isaly's and getting ice cream. I think there was a Giant Eagle down there too. I have not been in the area in about 15 years, but it's nice to hear someone say something good about it.

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by mikeindeland

I lived in Lawrenceville in the late 1950's and it from your description it sounds like not a thing has changed! I was quite young then, but I do remember my mom taking me to Arsenal Park to play. I fell into the pond once. We lived on 42nd Street, a couple of blocks up from Butler, and I remember going to the Isaly's and getting ice cream. I think there was a Giant Eagle down there too. I have not been in the area in about 15 years, but it's nice to hear someone say something good about it.

I think you would be rather surprised at Lawrenceville these days.

[Gee Whiz]

I 'll admit, I was a skeptic about Lawrencevile. I guess it stems from taking the 91A down Butler Street from Sharpsburg in the 70s and 80s. In those days, Lawrenceville was run down and had a lot of alcoholics and drug addicts pretty much from the 62nd Street Bridge to 34th Street. Even five or ten years ago when a few new cafes and fern bars opened that cater to a certain clientele, I was like "Yeah, Yeah, it still has a long way to go." Driving through there the other day, I have to say that I am impressed. I see a lot of private investment and the vibe of a neighborhood that has a lot of momentum. I still contend that the area around Rite Aid at 40th Street needs more revitalization. As I have stated in in other threads, it would be nice for Rite Aid to build a new building fronting Butler, with the parking lot or even a low level parking garage in the back. This would not only be more aesthetically appealing, but also would bring more cohesiveness to the 30's and 40's blocks of Butler. It will be better for the walkability factor. This is basically the center of the neighborhood as far as the business district goes.
Eventually, Lawrencevile will be connected to the Strip. There is some decent momentum along Penn Avenue about 25th Street to the 31st Street Bridge/Pub. One key property that needs to go is that scrap yard at 33rd Street. I know it is a viable business, but it sits on property that is too valuable to be such an eyesore. The area past 45th Street to Stanton Avenue/51st Street is seeing some slow and steady renewal. Finally, the area from Stanton Avenue to the 62nd Street Bridge is still rather shabby looking. This is considered to be a good area for investment because it still relatively inexpensive. The factories beside the 62nd Street Bridge were razed a few years back, but they are still looking for a good development plan for this large site that will help Upper Lawrenceville. That may be several years away before this area matches what is going on from 34th Street to 45th Street. Then again, I was skeptical before and proven wrong.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Gee Whiz

I still contend that the area around Rite Aid at 40th Street needs more revitalization. As I have stated in in other threads, it would be nice for Rite Aid to build a new building fronting Butler, with the parking lot or even a low level parking garage in the back. This would not only be more aesthetically appealing, but also would bring more cohesiveness to the 30's and 40's blocks of Butler. It will be better for the walkability factor. This is basically the center of the neighborhood as far as the business district goes.

I think everyone in the neighborhood would like to see something here, but Rite Aid isn't the property owner. It's part of the same parcel as the remainder of that superblock, which has been owned by "Arsenal Terminal Warehouse" since 1946. Unless/until someone buys out this megablock I don't see much happening here.

Originally Posted by Gee Whiz

Eventually, Lawrencevile will be connected to the Strip. There is some decent momentum along Penn Avenue about 25th Street to the 31st Street Bridge/Pub.

There was some minor rehabbing of the facades of two of the rowhouses on the 3100 block of Penn Avenue in the Strip District over the last few months. Doesn't look that different, but they cleaned up the brick and installed new brake metal. Hopefully a sign that that block is set to "turn."

Originally Posted by Gee Whiz

One key property that needs to go is that scrap yard at 33rd Street. I know it is a viable business, but it sits on property that is too valuable to be such an eyesore.

That place is the worst. The alley behind it is always littered with junk, and they even tend to store some scrap and machines out on the sidewalk from time to time.

Originally Posted by Gee Whiz

The area past 45th Street to Stanton Avenue/51st Street is seeing some slow and steady renewal.

I live around here. Pedestrian traffic is just kinda dead in this zone because the business district is a bit one-sided, as Leslie Park and then Allegheny Cemetery sit on the southeastern side of Butler from 46th to 51st. A lot of the properties on the 4700, 4800, and 4900 blocks are houses which front directly on Butler as well, though of course with the commercial zoning they could be turned into shops as demand rises. A new boutique will be going in where a dive bar used to be on the corner of 46th, and a restaurant is supposedly eventually going to open at the corner of Home, so yes, this area continues to improve slowly.

Originally Posted by Gee Whiz

Finally, the area from Stanton Avenue to the 62nd Street Bridge is still rather shabby looking. This is considered to be a good area for investment because it still relatively inexpensive. The factories beside the 62nd Street Bridge were razed a few years back, but they are still looking for a good development plan for this large site that will help Upper Lawrenceville. That may be several years away before this area matches what is going on from 34th Street to 45th Street. Then again, I was skeptical before and proven wrong.

IMHO you can split the Upper Lawrenceville business district into three areas. The first two blocks are relatively intact and provide a nice walking experience. Once you get past McCandless, the area begins suffering from continuity issues, as there's a huge megablock on the north side of Butler which is mostly a quasi-abandoned truck terminal. Then once you hit the Shop and Save at 55th, Upper Lawrenceville is basically done. There's a tiny residential area around 57th, but the city considers half of this to be Morningside anyway. Due to the nature of that stretch of Butler Street, and the steep topography meaning you can't really build out too much more, I think that area and points northward to the 62nd Street Bridge will remain largely unwalkable and underdeveloped.

[Gee Whiz]

I am not too enthused about the blocks past McCandless either. There is that Sunoco plant that is not going anywhere soon. I think the best bet for the old factories by 62nd Street Bridge may be light industrial or a an office park. It is too isolated to be a part of the pedestrian experience in Lawrenceville.
As far as the stretch between 46th Street and McCandless, it's future looks promising. Even though the business district is on one side, Leslie Park adds a nice amenity, and the castle at Allegheny Cemetery adds nice charm and greenery to this stretch in an urban environment, while not being too detached for the 40th Street core. These are appealing attributes once the the area from 34th Street to 45th reaches full saturation. I think that the area of the old Somewhere Inn Lawrenceville bar and Plummer Street has some potential charm and could have it's own little neighborhood identity in the not too distant future.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I think everyone in the neighborhood would like to see something here, but Rite Aid isn't the property owner. It's part of the same parcel as the remainder of that superblock, which has been owned by "Arsenal Terminal Warehouse" since 1946. Unless/until someone buys out this megablock I don't see much happening here.

Both the Rite Aid and the medical offices sitting on this lot are viable, ongoing enterprises- looking to tear them down with the idea of rebuilding on the parking lot and relegating the parking to the back would be an awful large price solely for architectural concerns and continuity.

The electric supply outfit on the same block used to be a restaurant, Eat n Park, but it just wasn't able to do enough business in that role.


The 3900 block has provided a break in continuity in the Butler St. streetscape since the Monroe Administration when the arsenal was built there, and it looks like that historic role will continue whether people like it or not.