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And tell me who makes a moderate muslim? There is no such thing! You have those trying to infiltrate as moderate, wearing jeans and designer labels etc. but it's only clothing and talk. Why don't you ask a muslim what the agenda of islam is? They are lying if they tell you anything other than alla wants them to spread out and convert every person on earth and kill all those who will not!
You don't have to be a mind-reader to know what the ultimate goal of Islam is.
Anyone treating "Islam" as some sort of unified organization with a shared goal pretty much disqualifies themselves from the discussion. As a religion, it's criss-crossed with schisms and sectarianism, as a cultural identity, even more.
For instance, Rauf is a Sufi - bin Laden and his Wahhabist ilk (hyper-conservative Sunnis, the preferred Saudi-Arabian brand) would consider him the worst sort of heretic, probably even an apostate.
Not that it matters. The terrorists who attacked on 9/11 consider American freedoms - including religious freedom - horrible, sinful, unnatural things. This is your chance to flip them off and say "You won't change America." Or you can decide that freedom of religion is too dangerous, too much for modern America to handle.
[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination."
If you succeed, may the ghost of Jefferson haunt your dreams.
Anyone treating "Islam" as some sort of unified organization with a shared goal pretty much disqualifies themselves from the discussion. As a religion, it's criss-crossed with schisms and sectarianism, as a cultural identity, even more.
For instance, Rauf is a Sufi - bin Laden and his Wahhabist ilk (hyper-conservative Sunnis, the preferred Saudi-Arabian brand) would consider him the worst sort of heretic, probably even an apostate.
Not that it matters. The terrorists who attacked on 9/11 consider American freedoms - including religious freedom - horrible, sinful, unnatural things. This is your chance to flip them off and say "You won't change America." Or you can decide that freedom of religion is too dangerous, too much for modern America to handle.
[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination."
If you succeed, may the ghost of Jefferson haunt your dreams.
First of all, I have no idea what your second paragraph about bin Laden even means. Absolutely I will jump at the chance to flip them, (those who hate America), off! I am all for freedom of religion and freedom from religion. However, this is just a bad idea. Read my previous post. How easy would it be for a church of a Christian denomination to built at ground zero? It would be rejected in a heartbeat. There is this segment of the population that feels its better to appease and be kind to our enemies and hopefully all of this conflict go away. Well here's a reality check. There are those out there that despise America and everything we stand for. On 9/11 while we as a nation were in shock and sadness, there were others around the globe that celebrated. Dane_in_LA if someone tries to do harm to you are going to try and befriend them and appease them? Or are you going to stand up for yourself? Saying Islam isn't an organizied religion is like saying the Crips & Bloods really aren't like a gang. Not that it matters? Really! Thousands of lives were lost because of a radical agenda.
First of all, I have no idea what your second paragraph about bin Laden even means. Absolutely I will jump at the chance to flip them, (those who hate America), off! I am all for freedom of religion and freedom from religion. However, this is just a bad idea. Read my previous post. How easy would it be for a church of a Christian denomination to built at ground zero?It would be rejected in a heartbeat. There is this segment of the population that feels its better to appease and be kind to our enemies and hopefully all of this conflict go away. Well here's a reality check. There are those out there that despise America and everything we stand for. On 9/11 while we as a nation were in shock and sadness, there were others around the globe that celebrated. Dane_in_LA if someone tries to do harm to you are going to try and befriend them and appease them? Or are you going to stand up for yourself? Saying Islam isn't an organizied religion is like saying the Crips & Bloods really aren't like a gang. Not that it matters? Really! Thousands of lives were lost because of a radical agenda.
I have to address the bolded/underlined sentence.
First of all, you surely understand that this mosque isn't to be built "at ground zero", right? I thought that had been pretty much cleared up by now. The mosque is located two blocks north of the northern perimeter of the WTC site on Park Place.
Secondly, a church is going to be built closer to the World Trade Center than this mosque. Remember St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church? Crushed to pieces by the fall of the south tower? That stood one block from the southern perimeter of the World Trade Center. It will be rebuilt in its original place on Cedar Street. http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/
Remember, Manhattan has more churches than it does bars.
Not to mention that St. Paul's Chapel, oldest public building still in use in Manhattan, is directly across Church Street. St. Peter's Church, New York's oldest Catholic parish, is three blocks north, and Trinity Episcopal is three blocks south at the foot of Wall Street.
Here's a lower Manhattan street map for notification of current construction projects in the area (the dark blocks, if you click on them it tells you what they are, the largest area obviously is the World Trade Center construction site.) It will help you get your bearings as to where everything is.
First of all, I have no idea what your second paragraph about bin Laden even means.
It means that the people behind this project are as much in opposition to bin Laden as you and I - perhaps more. The actual Islamist terrorists would hate this project. Theater? Swimming pools? Sufism?
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Absolutely I will jump at the chance to flip them, (those who hate America), off! I am all for freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
We're in perfect agreement on that one.
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However, this is just a bad idea. Read my previous post. How easy would it be for a church of a Christian denomination to built at ground zero? It would be rejected in a heartbeat.
Two blocks away in an old low-cost clothing store. In New York, that is a pretty long distance. And there are other houses of worship closer by.
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. There are those out there that despise America and everything we stand for.
Certainly. But I hope you don't think that every Muslim fits that description?
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On 9/11 while we as a nation were in shock and sadness, there were others around the globe that celebrated.
The Muslims I personally knew at the time reacted with shock, sadness and fear for their loved ones - in this case, back in Iran. Oh, and deep anger at those who'd disgraced their religion.
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Dane_in_LA if someone tries to do harm to you are going to try and befriend them and appease them? Or are you going to stand up for yourself?
Imam Rauf has never done me a scintilla of harm that I know of.
But since you asked: I wore my country's uniform back when the cold war was hot. There were enemy landing craft moored 90 minutes from where I lived. There have been people in my life who had thousands of times the capacity to do me harm than every terrorist ever. Back then, I also respected the fact that my country's constitution let the Communists - the old-fashioned Moscow-controlled sort - run for elections, print newspapers and have their say. It's a principle thing. Weaker minds would probably call it appeasement.
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Saying Islam isn't an organizied religion is like saying the Crips & Bloods really aren't like a gang.
The Crips & Bloods aren't a gang. There's a gang called the Crips, there's a gang called the Bloods, and they hate each other.
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Not that it matters? Really! Thousands of lives were lost because of a radical agenda.
The radical agenda is not representative of all of Islam. There is no monolithic authority in Islam - no Pope-like figure or Archbishop or Cenobiarch. Like I said, a Wahhabist bin Laden type would absolutely hate this project.
It is not a freedom of speech issue and shouldn't be for this issue.
The background of why this thing is trying to be erected is the issue.
We have the history of the initial name given to the project - the Cordoba Initiative (lined out in earlier posts). Now it has been changed to "Park51". It is right here staring at us and hiding in plain sight, but we want to overlook it. I find that to be so totally amazing that anyone would want to overlook this.
Newt is saying the same thing that Guiliani has said and is saying, “It not only is exactly the wrong place, at Ground Zero, but it is a mosque supported by an imam who has a record of support for causes that were sympathetic with terrorism.”
That is the real issue and if anyone continues to overlook that fact, it's a disastrous oversight on the part of any American, IMO, to support the go ahead of this mosque.
Several excellent, rational arguments against Newt's xenophobia:
"A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. "
Several excellent, rational arguments against Newt's xenophobia:
"A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. "
Yet, this imam has a record of support for causes that have been sympathetic with terrorism. That is the issue. Let's keep our focus.
Another issue with Islam that is a concern is the particular term - TAQIYYA.
A Muslim is allowed to deceive a non-muslim IF it helps Islam. It is a principle and it is called, Taqiyya. Other religions speak highly of truthfulness and honesty, yet, Islam affords the opposite. The Qur'an instructs a Muslim to lie to non-muslims about their beliefs and their political ambitions in order to protect and spread Islam.
Muslim leaders will say one thing to the West and another thing to their followers in Arabic. Deceiving the enemy is useful in war and Islam is at war with the non-Islamic world until Sharia is enforced on all the world.
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