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If this isn't about religion, then why are the protests against an Islamic community center? I've seen plenty of protesters specify "Islam" in their criticisms. What is a mosque but a place for religion?
Hitchens would gladly ban all religious buildings, I have no doubt.
Right now, it is about religious tolerance - it's about the location of an Islamic community center. If Muslims start making "demands of the most intolerant kind", then it will become about that.
I don't fear Islam more than Christianity. They both have teachings that give great potential for intolerance. And Christianity has been used to justify horrible things too. We don't ban churches in certain locations just because of that. So why should we do that for mosques?
Muhammad: Kill the infidel (Psssttt, you're an infidel)
Jesus: Love, feed, clothe, pray for and bless you enemies
Generally I like Hitch but Hitchens view point is a reflection of his disdain for any and all religious leaders, so even as a fellow atheist, I take his comments with a grain of salt.
He would have written the same thing, more or less, no matter what the religion.
I asked for a very specific reason. You and others like you are under the assumption that people that are supporting the right of freedom of religion are pro-Islam. You are wrong!
I can only speak for myself (and not everyone like me ... whatever that means), but the issue is not freedom of religion ... the issue is freedom PERIOD. And with Islam, there is no such thing.
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Originally Posted by sickofnyc
Do you know what the percentage of radical Muslims is to peaceful Muslims? Do you not understand that our occupation of regions where we are not wanted has bred terrorism?
Again, this is not about terrorism, who commits it, or the motivations behind it. So set aside the terrorist argument ... it's a red herring, and not the issue.
This is about the fundamental hostility toward personal freedom which is at the very core of Islam's totalitarian philosophy. And it is a "system", rather than just a religion. Those who believe Islam is just a religion, demonstrate their ignorance of what Islam actually is .... it is a way of life and a form of governing based on Islamic law ... and this includes all Muslims, be they moderates, fundamentalists, or extremists. That which defines Islamic moderates, fundamentalists and extremists, is only the degree of totalitarianism which they embrace, and in my view, even moderate totalitarianism is unacceptable.
The problem therefore doesn't begin with the extremists ... they are simply the predictable conclusion made possible by the initial acceptance of moderate tyranny to start with.
So this isn't about how many terrorists are among the Muslims ... this is about 1.2 Billion Muslims, at least half of which are fundamentalists, and all of which accept and promote a totalitarian system that is the antithesis of American society and values.
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Originally Posted by sickofnyc
Do you know that Osama bin laden was spurred on by a USA Military Base on what Muslims consider holy land? Do you know that Bush shut the base down after 9/11?
First, this has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden, or AL-CIA-Duh. Propaganda ... just like Iraq's WMDs ... a complete fabrication as a pretext for war. What does that have to do with this topic? Absolutely nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofnyc
From Hitchen's article...
So, before he is used by our State Department on any more goodwill missions overseas, I would like to see Imam Rauf asked a few searching questions about his support for clerical dictatorship in, just for now, Iran. Let us by all means make the "Ground Zero" debate a test of tolerance. But this will be a one-way street unless it is to be a test of Muslim tolerance as well.
I found this part interesting as Mr. Hitchens failed to mention that we installed the Shah in Iran that led to radical, fundamentalist Islam. Yes, Iran had a democracy before we took it away. It is an opinion piece and his not addressing this little tidbit speaks volumes about why people are so ignorant as to why we have enticed violence upon ourselves. I am not excusing violence, but I cannot excuse the provocation either.
You know, this makes me sick ... "we have enticed violence upon ourselves"? I HAVEN"T ENTICED ANYTHING ... maybe you have a freaking mouse in your pocket? No, the American people haven't enticed violence upon themselves, and it is a despicable thing to say! So you think we kinda had it coming to us on 911, aye? You OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
I'll have you know, any and all ill deeds committed by this government (and you'll take special note that I did not say "our government"), of which there have been many, have been perpetrated by a government that no longer serves the will of the people, but serves the international banking gangsters who OWN them.
The only thing the American people (many, but no all) are guilty of is ignorance and stupidity ... continuing to believe the same propaganda, and the same lame stories, time after time, when they ought to know better.
And it's the absolute epitome of stupidity to promote this freedom hating CULT in the name of freedom. What a total mind warping twist of logic is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofnyc
The hypocrisy of the right in amazing and the way that the no other platform politicians are playing you like a fiddle is pathetic.
I hate to tell you this ... but Hitchens is a die hard, bleeding hart, inanely progressive liberal of the first degree ... and his distrust of Islam, and it's anti-freedom philosophies that are the antithesis of liberal ideology, is one of the rare, and perhaps only sane and logical positions the man has taken since he was potty trained.
No ... the problem isn't hypocrisy from the right ... it's this beyond ignorant support of every anti-American agenda floated in front of the liberal nose, no matter how ripe the stench. This one just happens to be named ... Islam.
Hitchens is normally a moron. But I agree with him in this article.
Just remember though, Hitchens is a Trotskyist. He is just more anti-religion than he is a communist. Hitchens was against the 1991 Gulf War. Yet, he all of a sudden supported the Bush invasion with open arms. The difference? Saddam was fighting the Iranians in the 1980s and Saddam was a leftist. When it came out that Saddam may have been supporting Islamists, Hitchens changed his views. When the war became one where Islamists became increasingly involved, it further confirmed his views that Iraq was good since it could deal a blow to Islam.
Militant atheists may hate Christianity but they fear Islam. Hitchens decides he wants to put up some fight. Others are too scared of Islam to do anything.
left wingers are divided on Islam. Islam isnt as fierce in opposition to left wing ideology as Christianity is. Christianity is a greater threat to them not because of the morals of Christianity but because of the political opposition. Islam is a force that can destroy Christianity. Some leftists support Islam because they see it as being able to destroy Christianity. They believe they can tame Islam after it does what they want it to do. However, some leftists like Hitchens take the view that Islam wont be able to be tamed and that evidence shows that Islam does more harm than good. Hitchens hasnt changed his leftist views. He just believes that leftists should attack all religions equally and go after even ones that might serve their purposes. To Hitchens, nothing good can come from allying yourself with a religion. Most leftists view Islam as an ally to weaken or destroy Christianity. Hitchens wants to destroy both. He prefers a hardline communist stand on religions. All are the opiate of the masses, not just Christianity.
When strippers fly airplanes into buildings, I guess then we'll talk about preventing them from opening up a business where their damage was done.
IF this particular Iman was truly interested in winning over America's hearts and minds towards Islam, the first step he should do is offer to move the Mosque. That could help convince people that this guy actually does give a damn about someone else besides himself and his quest to have the fanciest mosque in town.
He keeps talking about building bridges, but I haven't seen 1 instance of it in this case. Face it, Islam has a tremendously BAD reputation after 9/11, and it needs some SERIOUS public relations work to help win people over. This Iman isn't helping things at all. He just looks and sounds like a self centered prick.
So all Muslims = terrorists. According to that logic Christians = war mongers (Iraq war) and Christians = pedophiles.
There are millions of muslims that condemn those attacks but you will never be pleased with their effort.
Hitchens is normally a moron. But I agree with him in this article.
Just remember though, Hitchens is a Trotskyist. He is just more anti-religion than he is a communist. Hitchens was against the 1991 Gulf War. Yet, he all of a sudden supported the Bush invasion with open arms. The difference? Saddam was fighting the Iranians in the 1980s and Saddam was a leftist. When it came out that Saddam may have been supporting Islamists, Hitchens changed his views. When the war became one where Islamists became increasingly involved, it further confirmed his views that Iraq was good since it could deal a blow to Islam.
Militant atheists may hate Christianity but they fear Islam. Hitchens decides he wants to put up some fight. Others are too scared of Islam to do anything.
left wingers are divided on Islam. Islam isnt as fierce in opposition to left wing ideology as Christianity is. Christianity is a greater threat to them not because of the morals of Christianity but because of the political opposition. Islam is a force that can destroy Christianity. Some leftists support Islam because they see it as being able to destroy Christianity. They believe they can tame Islam after it does what they want it to do. However, some leftists like Hitchens take the view that Islam wont be able to be tamed and that evidence shows that Islam does more harm than good. Hitchens hasnt changed his leftist views. He just believes that leftists should attack all religions equally and go after even ones that might serve their purposes. To Hitchens, nothing good can come from allying yourself with a religion. Most leftists view Islam as an ally to weaken or destroy Christianity. Hitchens wants to destroy both. He prefers a hardline communist stand on religions. All are the opiate of the masses, not just Christianity.
So all Muslims = terrorists. According to that logic Christians = war mongers (Iraq war) and Christians = pedophiles.
There are millions of muslims that condemn those attacks but you will never be pleased with their effort.
Could you point out exactly what "effort" these people did? Words are hollow. What specific actions did the more moderate Muslims in the world perform to help reduce the spread of radicalized Islam?
And no, I don't believe all Muslims are terrorists. That is a ridiculous argument. People are against putting a mosque at that location due to the fact that this building was close enough to the epicenter of Ground Zero that it was damaged by the landing gear of one of the planes. Like it or not, this heinous act was done via an Islamic religious process. The terrorists performed a cleansing ritual prior to the attack in order to get their "reward" for martyrdom.
If McVeigh said the rosary before performing his heinous act in OKC or claimed he was getting a fast pass to heaven by doing it, then it would become a religious act as well.
The liberal media keeps pushing this phantom issue but once again, it is not about tolerance or religious freedom. It's about cultural sensitivity and respect, of which Islam has none if they think nothing's wrong with building a mosque so close to a site of one of their greatest terrorist attacks, all done in the name of Islam.
Islam has much to prove when it comes to tolerating non-Muslims. America has over a thousand mosques built here, we don't have to "prove our tolerance" because we've already done so, many times over.
Protesting one mosque in one area doesn't make the protesters bigots or "Islamophobic".
Absolutely right on! -- Does anyone seriously buy-into the pretense that this is all about tolerance or freedom of religion? Nor is it about bashing Muslims, many of whom do not openly expouse radical "kill all the infidels" demands. It's about common sense, decency and respect. There are a 1000 other places such a mosque could be built, without making such a blatant, 'in-your-face', 'Radical Islamic strength vs American weakness' statement. (Do you think American Christians could build major Christian churches in any of a dozen predominantly Muslim nations? ... not on your life! -- Why don't the 'all tolerant, liberal minded' media and others expouse that ... instead of always putting a reverse spin on America's freedoms, ... to bash America ... while supporting every radical cause that would destroy America?).
Should a Nazi monument be erected in downtown Jerusalem? (after all, very few Germans have Nazi leanings) ... How about a Japanese military monument in Pearl Harbor? (Look at the amazing contribution to the world and the U.S. that Japan has made) ... Maybe Timothy McVey should have a monument in Oklahoma City? (He was an Oklahoman and one can certainly not fault all Oklahomans, because of one bad apple).
Trying to be all things to all people, at the expense of America is both foolish and short-sighted. --- As Thomas Jefferson said (paraphrase), "The government that is strong enough to give everyone any 'freedom' they imagine they should have, is also strong enough to take every freedom away"
I don't give a crap if a mosque is 2 blocks versus 15 blocks from ground zero. .
Actually, this IS ground zero. The Burlington Coat Factory building was hit, and two floors of it destroyed. Had it been occupied at the time (which it was not), people would have died there, too. It IS a part of ground zero, not "2 blocks away" as people keep saying.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
If this isn't about religion, then why are the protests against an Islamic community center? I've seen plenty of protesters specify "Islam" in their criticisms. What is a mosque but a place for religion?
It's because of what GuyNTexas has explained so well -- many people are ignorant of the real issue; the Imam and his wife are making this an issue of religion to use our own laws to further their goals, and people are buying into their selected argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
I can only speak for myself (and not everyone like me ... whatever that means), but the issue is not freedom of religion ... the issue is freedom PERIOD. And with Islam, there is no such thing.
This is about the fundamental hostility toward personal freedom which is at the very core of Islam's totalitarian philosophy. And it is a "system", rather than just a religion. Those who believe Islam is just a religion, demonstrate their ignorance of what Islam actually is .... it is a way of life and a form of governing based on Islamic law ... and this includes all Muslims, be they moderates, fundamentalists, or extremists. That which defines Islamic moderates, fundamentalists and extremists, is only the degree of totalitarianism which they embrace, and in my view, even moderate totalitarianism is unacceptable.
The only thing the American people (many, but no all) are guilty of is ignorance and stupidity ... continuing to believe the same propaganda, and the same lame stories, time after time, when they ought to know better.
I can only speak for myself (and not everyone like me ... whatever that means), but the issue is not freedom of religion ... the issue is freedom PERIOD. And with Islam, there is no such thing.
This is about the fundamental hostility toward personal freedom which is at the very core of Islam's totalitarian philosophy. And it is a "system", rather than just a religion. Those who believe Islam is just a religion, demonstrate their ignorance of what Islam actually is .... it is a way of life and a form of governing based on Islamic law ... and this includes all Muslims, be they moderates, fundamentalists, or extremists. That which defines Islamic moderates, fundamentalists and extremists, is only the degree of totalitarianism which they embrace, and in my view, even moderate totalitarianism is unacceptable.
The problem therefore doesn't begin with the extremists ... they are simply the predictable conclusion made possible by the initial acceptance of moderate tyranny to start with.
So this isn't about how many terrorists are among the Muslims ... this is about 1.2 Billion Muslims, at least half of which are fundamentalists, and all of which accept and promote a totalitarian system that is the antithesis of American society and values.
It wouldn't let me rep you, so I'll give you two thumbs up! Excellent!
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