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I got to where I don't usually get into these countless "gay rights" threads anymore because they just lead to heartburn and the same posters hysterically screaming *gasp" "Homophobe" or "hateful" or some meaningless names like that.
The whole strategy is to shut down rational discussion by attempting to put those who disagree with them on the defensive.
I may or may not come back to this thread to reply or post again. Depends on my mood. But I DO want to repeat something that I have said countless times before and on many of the same old tired threads. To wit:
1. I don't care in the least what consenting adults do behind closed doors.
2. I have nothing at all against gay people, and have a couple (no pun intended) of genuine friends who are openly homosexual, both on C-D and R/T. One guy was a hunting buddy of mine and we used to kid each other about it all. They don't shove it in my face and I would certainly not intentionally persecute them, or any other gay person. I am as outraged as anyone when hearing/reading of brutal violent assaults committed against gay people for no other reason that they are gay and otherwise not bothering anyone nor do anything illegal themselves.
3. I do not think that that being homosexual per se is the worst thing in the world by any means. Not even close. Such pales in comparisson to an habitual obnoxious drunk, or religious hypocrite (such as Jimmy Swaggert).
With all that said though? What is this big production with many posters of hollering "hate" and "homophobia" anytime they encounter another viewpoint?
The more I hear it and see this tired old ploy, the more I just want to just reduce my responses to something along the lines of a contemptuous and dismisive "Bite my homophobic rear end, then" (welll, actually, maybe I SHOULDN'T put it that way! ).
I am honestly not trying for sarcastic laughs, but just to make the point that many (not all by any means) silly name-calling is, like the term "racist", becoming the modern-day version of The Boy Who Cried Wolf."
To go the full circle and put it in a nutshell?
1. Marriage is an institution between a man and woman. Every "society" since the dawn of time has, in some form or fashion, recognized and incorporated this fact into their social customs and laws.
2. Homosexual behavior is abnormal, and no amount of spin is going to change this fact of human existance. If it was normal, then the human race could not reproduce.
3. Gay people have the exact same constitutional rights -- under the Bill of Rights -- as anyone else does. They can vote, peaceably assemble and worship or not. Keep and bear arms and have a trial by jury. And oh yeah, they can also marry according to the laws of their home state.
Finally, just to add something about the considered repeal of the "don't ask, don't tell" provision of military service?
This (repeal) borders on insanity. As a general rule, enlisted people are young men and women and the hormones are raging. It would be comparable -- just to use one instance -- of putting a young horny heterosexual man in a shower with unclothed women. Or vice-versa. Does anybody really think different? Geez...
I have said my piece. I stand by it. If it makes me a "homophobe"? Whatever. Yep, ok, I'm a homophobe. Big freaking deal....
This issue could be cleared though the Federal Government granting full benifit civil unions on the federal level but it doesn't seem to be what is wanted.
I believe this issue will never be settled within society as a whole, courts and judges divide the people not unite them.
No, no, no. It just doesn't work that way.
Let's play out your hypothetical. Imagine that today the federal government repealed DOMA (which it would have to because DOMA makes it illegal for the federal government to recognize any civil union between two people of the same sex - period), and created a separate but equal designation for homosexuals called "Civil Unions" that were legally the same as a heterosexual marriage (I wonder it they'd create separate but equal "marriage" designations for other other groups of people - maybe "Cohabitation" for blacks, "Domestic Partnerships" for atheists - personally, the idea disgusts me as highly anti-American).
Even if that happened, I still wouldn't be allowed to access any of the legal rights of either marriage or civil unionship. Why? Because I'm still banned from getting married or civilly unioned in Colorado (and roughly 40 other states).
The federal government does not marry or civilly union people - they don't grant marriages or civil unions. The federal government recognizes marriages that the states perform and then confers a slew of federal legal rights to those civil marriages. The Government Accountability Office has published a list of legal rights that come with marriage. States on average confer 400 legal rights to married couples whereas the federal government confers about 1,100 legal rights to married couples (social security survivorship benefits, visitation rights if a spouse is incarcerated in a fedreal prison, etc, etc, etc). If my state denied me access to the rights of marriage/civil unionship, then the federal government would continue to as well.
I guess us gays could try and petition congress to have the federal government start Civilly Unioning people, but even that wouldn't give homosexuals equal rights. People like me (Coloradans) would still be banned from accessing my state's legal marriage rights. Not to mention the fact congress would never pass such a bill.
I guess we could also try and petition the congress to pass a law forcing all 50 states to recognize gay civil unions and give same sex partners all the rights of marriage. However, congress would never pass such a bill.
I guess we could also wait 20 or 30 years for all the anti-gay bigots to die off (all the polling on this issue shows the only people really opposed to gay rights and gay marriage/civil unionship are the 55+ crowd and fundamental religious types). I'm don't want wait for my equal rights.
None of that will happen though. The Supreme Court will hear the California Prop 8 case sometime in the next 5 or so years, and at that time they'll make gay marriage legal nationwide (probably in a unanimous decision).
Well I'm not talking marriage I'm talking Civil Union and really it will never happen because Homosexuals don't want it or they would have tried already.
Your agument makes no sense being Obama himself said he is for Civil Unions for Homosexuals, if the Homosexuals wanted the Civil Unions the last two years was the best time to have went for it and the problem is no one has tried to do it and that speaks loudly. excuses are just a cop out for not trying.
1. Marriage is an institution between a man and woman. Every "society" since the dawn of time has, in some form or fashion, recognized and incorporated this fact into their social customs and laws.
Perhaps we should take a look at the following map to see how every "society" in 2010 has re-evaluated the issue, for modern times:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
2. Homosexual behavior is abnormal, and no amount of spin is going to change this fact of human existance. If it was normal, then the human race could not reproduce.
You are correct when the definition of "abnormal" means "not like the majority."
Under that definition, being white is abnormal. Or having blonde hair. Or having webbed feet.... or any of a multitude of immutable characteristics.
However, being white or having blonde hair is "normal" to the extent that both conditions are within the pantheon of expected human traits or conditions. Homosexuality is 6-8% of the human population. It is and has always been part of the human classes of sexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
3. Gay people have the exact same constitutional rights -- under the Bill of Rights -- as anyone else does. They can vote, peaceably assemble and worship or not. Keep and bear arms and have a trial by jury. And oh yeah, they can also marry according to the laws of their home state.
Sorry, but the Bill of Rights is not an exhaustive list of rights available to Americans. And, when one group of tax paying citizens is denied rights and privileges available to others, then yes, Virginia, there is a problem.
After all, all whites and blacks had the same rights to marry under the respective laws of their states during segregation, right? EVeryone could marry anyone of their same race?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
This (repeal) borders on insanity. As a general rule, enlisted people are young men and women and the hormones are raging. It would be comparable -- just to use one instance -- of putting a young horny heterosexual man in a shower with unclothed women. Or vice-versa. Does anybody really think different? Geez...
Um, you've got to be kidding. First off, gay people ARE ALREADY THERE. Second, all of the respected, civilized and modern armies -- even RUSSIA -- has no problem with gays. Why are Americans so immature and behind the curve? Are American young men less mature than those of other nations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
I have said my piece. I stand by it. If it makes me a "homophobe"? Whatever. Yep, ok, I'm a homophobe. Big freaking deal....
Doesn't make you a homophobe, but there does seem to be a demonstrable lack of respect or empathy for fellow American citizens who just want to have the same right as you --- to marry and commit and receive the benefits conferred by the government --- with someone they actually love.
Sometimes I just don't understand the conservative viewpoint on the issue.... I guess conservatives would just prefer gay boys marry their daughters?
1. Marriage is an institution between a man and woman. Every "society" since the dawn of time has, in some form or fashion, recognized and incorporated this fact into their social customs and laws.
Yes and no. In this country there are two general, broad categories of marriage:
1) Religious / cultural marriage: An institution of binding together two people under the laws, practices, and purposes of a particular religion or culture. What you describe above.
2) Civil marriage: A legal contract, given force by the government, that confers certain legal rights to the two people entering into it.
Unfortunately we call them the same thing, but they are different. They have to be - we don't legislate religion and we don't legislate the values of one culture when they invidiously discriminate against others.
When I ask for gay marriage, it has nothing to do with any religious or cultural institution. It has only to do with a set of 1400 legal rights I wish to have access to but are denied to me simply because I'm homosexual.
That said, I have no problem renaming civil marriage something else, or even doing away with it altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
2. Homosexual behavior is abnormal, and no amount of spin is going to change this fact of human existence. If it was normal, then the human race could not reproduce.
Ahh. First, it is normal (it conforms a standard, prevalent type). It's normal in the same way that redheads and left-handed people are normal (or abnormal I've heard some argue) But that's just semantics.
As to your biological / evolutionary-darwinistic argument, it's just extremely naive. Essentially every higher animal species or population contains a non-reproductive segment. That's an observable fact. Very often this segment is a homosexual segment - homosexuality is especially prevalent in birds and mammals (humans are mammals). That's another observable fact. Homosexuality has clearly been selected for and maintained in animal populations (including the human animal).
To conclude that homosexuality is somehow antithetical to the continuation of life is just not supported in biology - there are many theories that seek to explain why it has been maintained within biological populations, and there are several concrete examples showing how homosexuality aids and helps in the propagation of certain species.
That doesn't mean in humans homosexuality helps in the propagation the species. In humans, it's most likely a vestigial trait. But seriously, is it really harmful to the progagation of the human species? Come on, homosexuality has been observed and record in every human society, culture, etc. since the time we started writing things down and yet our population is approaching 7,000,000,000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
3. Gay people have the exact same constitutional rights -- under the Bill of Rights -- as anyone else does. They can vote, peaceably assemble and worship or not. Keep and bear arms and have a trial by jury. And oh yeah, they can also marry according to the laws of their home state.
No, we don't. The 14th amendment guarantees that all citizens be given equal access to the law - equal access to legal rights. The 14th amendment has been incorporated to the states (meaning it applies to the states too - a state can't ban black people from voting, or prevent Jewish people from buying liquor). Denying gay people access to the legal rights associated with a civil marriage contract is a violation of their constitutional rights (unless you can show to me how banning gays from marrying serves an important government interest - in other words, how does allowing gay marriage hurt the People. That's the legal test for allowing the government to discriminate in this manner).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Finally, just to add something about the considered repeal of the "don't ask, don't tell" provision of military service?
This (repeal) borders on insanity. As a general rule, enlisted people are young men and women and the hormones are raging. It would be comparable -- just to use one instance -- of putting a young horny heterosexual man in a shower with unclothed women. Or vice-versa. Does anybody really think different? Geez...
I could argue this all day with you too. I'll only mention that dozens of nations have integrated homosexuals into their armed forces without separate accommodations and without incident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
With all that said though? What is this big production with many posters of hollering "hate" and "homophobia" anytime they encounter another viewpoint?
I have said my piece. I stand by it. If it makes me a "homophobe"? Whatever. Yep, ok, I'm a homophobe. Big freaking deal....
You're by no means a hateful person. You seem very nice. I will however, point out you homophobia. You clearly see homosexuals as abnormal. You clearly fight against the acceptance of homosexuality (you actively lobby against allowing them to serve in the military, you feel they shouldn't be granted equal access to the laws of the United States). Conclusion: you FEAR the acceptance of homosexuality. If you didn't you wouldn't fight it. That's homophobia. The question then becomes is your homophobia justified.
Last edited by hammertime33; 11-07-2010 at 05:17 PM..
^ I repped you because you have made some compelling arguements regarding gays. It's amazing to hear somebody say that being gay is not "normal". Gay people have not chosen what sex they are attracted just like straight people have not chosen to be attracted to the opposite sex.
The difference is that human beings have control over their sexual behavior.
To the ones who babble about Civil Unions--you ARE aware that they don't always work, right? We have Civil Unions in NJ, and there are countless cases where they are not recognized because they are not MARRIED.
It's not even totally about MARRIAGE--it's Marriage EQUALITY. I understand that terms scares people, and they throw off "CIVIL UNIONS".. but to the ones who say Civil Unions--do you fully support that a Civil Union be EXACTLY equal to what Marriage is? (In the LEGAL sense)
I got to where I don't usually get into these countless "gay rights" threads anymore because they just lead to heartburn and the same posters hysterically screaming *gasp" "Homophobe" or "hateful" or some meaningless names like that.
The whole strategy is to shut down rational discussion by attempting to put those who disagree with them on the defensive.
I may or may not come back to this thread to reply or post again. Depends on my mood. But I DO want to repeat something that I have said countless times before and on many of the same old tired threads. To wit:
1. I don't care in the least what consenting adults do behind closed doors.
2. I have nothing at all against gay people, and have a couple (no pun intended) of genuine friends who are openly homosexual, both on C-D and R/T. One guy was a hunting buddy of mine and we used to kid each other about it all. They don't shove it in my face and I would certainly not intentionally persecute them, or any other gay person. I am as outraged as anyone when hearing/reading of brutal violent assaults committed against gay people for no other reason that they are gay and otherwise not bothering anyone nor do anything illegal themselves.
3. I do not think that that being homosexual per se is the worst thing in the world by any means. Not even close. Such pales in comparisson to an habitual obnoxious drunk, or religious hypocrite (such as Jimmy Swaggert).
With all that said though? What is this big production with many posters of hollering "hate" and "homophobia" anytime they encounter another viewpoint?
The more I hear it and see this tired old ploy, the more I just want to just reduce my responses to something along the lines of a contemptuous and dismisive "Bite my homophobic rear end, then" (welll, actually, maybe I SHOULDN'T put it that way! ).
I am honestly not trying for sarcastic laughs, but just to make the point that many (not all by any means) silly name-calling is, like the term "racist", becoming the modern-day version of The Boy Who Cried Wolf."
To go the full circle and put it in a nutshell?
1. Marriage is an institution between a man and woman. Every "society" since the dawn of time has, in some form or fashion, recognized and incorporated this fact into their social customs and laws.
2. Homosexual behavior is abnormal, and no amount of spin is going to change this fact of human existance. If it was normal, then the human race could not reproduce.
3. Gay people have the exact same constitutional rights -- under the Bill of Rights -- as anyone else does. They can vote, peaceably assemble and worship or not. Keep and bear arms and have a trial by jury. And oh yeah, they can also marry according to the laws of their home state.
Finally, just to add something about the considered repeal of the "don't ask, don't tell" provision of military service?
This (repeal) borders on insanity. As a general rule, enlisted people are young men and women and the hormones are raging. It would be comparable -- just to use one instance -- of putting a young horny heterosexual man in a shower with unclothed women. Or vice-versa. Does anybody really think different? Geez...
I have said my piece. I stand by it. If it makes me a "homophobe"? Whatever. Yep, ok, I'm a homophobe. Big freaking deal....
Are you kidding me right now? Do you really believe this?
I believe there are some gays out there that are just a bunch of stunt queens just looking for attention. They don't care at all that the attention is negative or demeaning, in fact, the more outlandish the better.
For the most part, most gays tend to be well intertwined with society and don't seek out opportunities to put on some sort of freak show. I think the flamboyants are ruining it for the rest of the gays, not the heteros of the world.
As a gay person, I stand by my assertion. Ask yourself why would gay people be "just a bunch of stunt queens"? Why would they push their gayness onto unsuspecting people so rudely? What anger must they hold to disregard the feelings of those around them? What would be the source of that rage? Any clues? I would say it is directly related to the treatment they receive by others, mostly heterosexuals. Is it not possible that living in a society with real hatred has no effect on the hated people? Really? It's ALL the gay peoples' fault?
Two people commented here that heterosexuals are in no way to blame for gay people having issues. Did I infer that all gay people's problems are the fault of heterosexuals? No, I did not. But some of the problems gay people experience are the result of living in a society dominated by heterosexuals who despise them, living in a culture that demonizes them, living within a culture dominated by a religion that tells them they should be dead.
Is there something in the heterosexual brain that doesn't compute this? Was there something in the brains of white people that told them their forced segregation from black people would not cause black people any harm?
To the ones who babble about Civil Unions--you ARE aware that they don't always work, right? We have Civil Unions in NJ, and there are countless cases where they are not recognized because they are not MARRIED.
It's not even totally about MARRIAGE--it's Marriage EQUALITY. I understand that terms scares people, and they throw off "CIVIL UNIONS".. but to the ones who say Civil Unions--do you fully support that a Civil Union be EXACTLY equal to what Marriage is? (In the LEGAL sense)
Babble, babble, babble, LOL But it hasn't even been attempted on a Federal level at State level it will alway be limited just as State level marriage will be. One last time, Obama's official stance is he is all for Federal civil unions with all the same benifits as marriage, you had the Democrats in control for two years which would ease the fight, it was the best time to introduce it but it wasn't done. I don't understand why if it is the benifits Homosexuals want.
Babble, babble I'm all done.
Last edited by Roaddog; 11-07-2010 at 06:57 PM..
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