What will it take to end homelessness once and for all? (drugs, holidays)

[artwomyn]

Originally Posted by Chuckity

It's obvious that you don't have a grasp on homelessness in America. You believe what YOU want to believe. And when called to the carpet on it you basically say "well I said it, but I meant something else".

Mircea took some time to provide you with a fantastically well thought and presented post regarding the truth about homelessness - but you dismiss him/her out of hand.

Did you know that the most common length of time someone is homeless is 36 to 48 hours? And half of those people will never be homeless again.

In this country there's only about 100,000 people on any given day who are chronically homeless .... hardly the explosion you yammer about.

Don't get your knickers in a knot! I defy you to prove that there are only 100,000 homeless. I dismiss both you, and Mircea 'out of hand', because you don't provide proof, regarding what you claim to know. Even if there were 'only 100,000 chronically homeless,' that' still way too many.

You're just another poster, who thinks that the homeless don't deserve compassion at all.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by artwomyn

Don't get your knickers in a knot! I defy you to prove that there are only 100,000 homeless. I dismiss both you, and Mircea 'out of hand', because you don't provide proof, regarding what you claim to know. Even if there were 'only 100,000 chronically homeless,' that' still way too many.

You're just another poster, who thinks that the homeless don't deserve compassion at all.

Your MO never changes. You stereotype anyone who disagrees with you.
You know very well that we have no solid number on the homeless just as we have no solid and or valid number on illegals. The best we have is a guess. The guesses vary depending on who is making it and for what reason.
As many have already said we will always have a number of homeless. Some actually enjoy the freedom of living in this manner.
Most are mentally ill. Even the alleged experts agree on this as being a fact.
How do you help everyone? Some want help and absolutely deserve it.
As you said some are homeless due to the misfortunes of this economy.
I don't think anyone would say that this category would constitute most.
Well maybe you would.
How do we help the homeless.
I am no expert but I would think first you would need to identify the individual causes and prioritize based on who can be helped right away and who are a lost cause but need hospitalized.
The drug addicts etc will have to wait their turn.
We have thousands of Vets on the streets. I think we owe them more than this existence.
Families need help today. But lets face facts. Unless the tragedy is in another country the media and our politicians just can't be bothered.
What we don't need is Limousine liberals who great on saying whose fault it is and short on doing. The easiest thing in the world is to call out whose fault it is point fingers and demand someone else do something about it.
Serving food on holidays just doesn't get it.
We have old military bases that can be used as refugee camps (for want of a better term).
We have military personnel reservists as well as active duty stationed state side. Yet we never make use of them as we could.

[rbohm]

Originally Posted by rory00

the causes of homelessness are deep. it's a result of the unfairness and the extreme competitiveness of society, poor parenting, bad or cruel people etc. if you don't have a solid and good start, you will be left behind and may even be damaged. once you are damaged, you can be lost pretty much forever like a handicapped person. most of them are deeply sad and heart-broken. homeless people are usually too weak or naive. of course, some are scum too.

compassion is not enough, practical solutions are. i would say a good start to end the homeless problem is put them in cheap housing where there is strict and ongoing drug testing as well as help for them such as counseling, drug rebab etc. they do have programs like that in some places for homeless veterans.

also, there could be a choice such as sterilization for housing if one refuses to work. but i would say that society would also need to change how it's economically structured and place these people in jobs they can do. they are not in any position to compete. even with the most menial jobs, society wants perky people who are unaffected and the homeless know they will not be accepted because they are slower or not as proficient. it would have to be very simple and menial most often such as factory work etc or work set up that they can do. society could do it but it's not there yet.

it would be a good experiment to set them up in self-sustaining colonies where they grow their own food etc. actually, this would be the best for them. homeless people tend to look out for eachother. these people just cannot live in the world that most do. to not recognize that is going to end in repeat failure. people are usually not able to understand those that are different from them and don't fit into general society, that is why you have homeless too.

interesting ideas, the problem is that they will never be put into operation due to various laws, court rulings, and the NIMBY factor.

Originally Posted by artwomyn

As I said before, I focused on the 80s, because that's when the media began to spread awareness about homelessness. As for people 'working for what they get', lots of people worked before they became homeless. And with our current jobless rate being so high, many more people, will become homeless before the economy ever improves.

By the way, this is not a thread, for you to bash Welfare recipients. If you want to do that, then go to a thread about Welfare.

i didnt bash welfare recipients, i just pointed out that untold trillions have been spent on ending poverty and homelessness since the 60s with no end in sight. i also pointed out that many homeless are that way because they choose to be. same with those on welfare. that is not bashing, that is fact.

Originally Posted by Mircea

That's a blatantly false statement. Their have always been "homeless" people, you just didn't call them "homeless" before the 1980s when "homlessness" became a $60 Billion a year business that people make money off of.



Actually it's been going on for more than 250,000 years.

Their were "homeless" Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but that's beside the point.



Thanks to you and people like you, namely liberals, the only thing we can do at this point is to throw money at a problem.

Before people found out how profitable the "homeless" could be, they were called vagrants.

When we define the "unemployed" we use an established criteria which is a three-prong test:

1] You must be available to work
2] You must want to be employed
3] You must be actively be seeking employment

When we define the "homeless" we also use an established criteria which is also a three-prong test:

1] You must be available for permanent housing
2] You must want permanent housing
3] You must actively be seeking permanent housing

The "homeless" fail the test, so they aren't really homeless.

If you want to help the "homeless," then stop interfering. It is your interference and the interference of others like you that has exasperated the problem.

Of the people you erroneously claim to be "homeless"

1] About 1%-2% truly are. These persons are "homeless" by circumstance, however, they are not "homeless" very long because they meet criteria of the objective three-prong test. Here's an example: A veteran has a good paying job and a nice apartment. He get's busted for DUI and during the process takes a swing at a Boone County police officer. He's in lock-up. For about 6 months. He lost his job. He was evicted from his apartment. His car was seized and the repossessed. Once he was released, he was effectively "homeless." He stayed at the Drop-In Center in Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati, then went to Mount Airy Men's Shelter, a "homeless" shelter paid for by the tax-payers of Hamilton County. During that time he attended drug and alcohol classes at the VA Hospital (where I met him) and he eventually got another job, saved up money living at the shelter and then moved into another shelter sponsored by Goodwill Industries, and then eventually had enough money saved up to purchase furniture and house-hold goods and move into an apartment.

2] About 10%-12% of the "homeless" are nutters. These people are whacked. When I came to the US back 2001 I used to work at the Potter Stewart Federal Courthouse in the city and would see a lot of these people wandering around or pan-handling at lunch. Even today I still see these people, the guy with the dreds, they guy that walks around with his hands over his ears (he hears voices), the lady with all of her bags she drags around etc etc.

Thanks to you and people like you and especially the ACLU, there is nothing we can do for those people, because you have used the courts to tie our hands behind our backs.

So congratulations for dicking them over.

Thanks to court actions by you and people like you, we cannot confine them, nor can we force them to take their medication which would allow them to function somewhat normally and possibly hold a real job.

Then you have the gall to sit there smugly and demand that we throw money at those people. There's no way to help those people. They are mental, and they need psychiatric help, and they need medication, and they need supervision, and you have done everything in your power to ensure that we cannot get them the psychiatric help they need, or the medication they need or the supervision they need.

I hope you feel really good about that.

3] The remainder of the "homeless" are not "homeless" they are street people: vagrants. They love living on the street. It is exciting to them as each day brings something new and different and a challenge to get enough money to buy beer, drugs or sex. Those people have no desire to live in any permanent form of housing. We can look at the St Petersburg Times for an instructive article about these people. The tax payers of St Petersburg built an $8 Million state-of-the-art "homeless" shelter and it is unused.

The "homeless" didn't want to stay there because there are, um, "rules" like they have to be in the shelter by 11:00 PM, they can't leave once they're inside, they can't sleep all day either as they have to be out of bed by 8:00 AM so they can participate in activities that lead to a job and permanent housing, which is exactly what they don't want.

We see the same thing here in Cincinnati. The city tells the Drop-In Center it's funding is being cut unless it does something, so the Drop-In creates some new rules, like you have to a state-issued ID card to stay there, you have to be in by 9:00 PM to get a bed, you have to be out by 8:00 AM etc etc and they revolt and now they have this "Homeless Congress" where they are fighting for their god given unalienable right to sleep of their drug/alcohol/sex-fest all day at tax-payer expense.

And of course they are fighting for their god given unalienable right to urinate, defecate and sleep in Washington Park to the exclusion of all other residents of the city and that problem has been exasperated because about 2 months ago a police cruiser drove over and killed an "homeless" woman sleeping in the park while chasing a suspect.

The overwhelming vast majority of those people have drug and/or alcohol addictions. A 30-day program is not going to help them. Such a program is only marginally successful for those who have been substance abusers for less than 6 months.

When you have people who have been substance abusers for years and years and years, it's going to take more than a 30-day "feel good" program.

You need intense behavior modification, and that requires some form of confinement and restriction, as well as supervision by psychologists.

In Eastern Europe we just round up street people and send them off to a farm or coal-mine/salt-mine to work like a dog for the next 12-15 years and maybe when they finally "get it" they'll ask the world to stop so they can get back on it.

That's what you need to do in the US. Round up the "homeless" and put them in an environment that is highly supervised and extremely regimented where a typical day consists of 8-10 hours of hard labor and another 4-6 hours of intense workshops and group therapy in drug and alcohol abuse, anger management, personal financial responsibility, emotional wellness and so on. It will take about 7 to 12 years to break their addiction and modify their behavior to the extent that they no longer have the desire to live on the streets.

We can't do that here in the US, because pan-handling on the streets and urinating, defecating, sleeping, drinking and doing drugs in public parks is protected speech under the 1st Amendment thanks to you and people like you.

So yet again you have tied everyone's hands behind their backs and now you're going to attempt to shout everyone down who doesn't want to waste several $Billion in tax payer dollars doing absolutely nothing to solve the problem.

And before you start spouting off at the mouth about "families" in "homeless" shelters, there are none.

Well there's a women and her children in a homeless shelter..... Yeah, I'm sure there is and I'm also equally certain that she is either the non-custodial parent and has illegally taken the children and is in hiding, or she is fleeing an arrest warrant, or she has been convicted of a drug or other offense and fled to avoid the sentencing hearing or something similar to that. Police and private investigators will tell you that's the first place they look when there are missing children and custody is possibly an issue. You'll typically find them there are find they were there and moved on.

You also don't seem to understand that the "homeless" is a $60 Billion a year business. It spans various groups like "homeless coalitions and homeless congresses and other homeless advocacy groups who get lots and lots of money from the federal, state, county and city governments as well as private philanthropic organizations, religions organizations and groups, businesses and other private groups.

They have a vested interest in perpetuating the plight of the "homeless" because they make money off of it. It is a career. The director of the Drop-In Center is not driving around in a beat-up Ford Pinto. The staff drives Acuras and Lexus and BMWs and Mercedes.

There's also the "politics of power." Those people are nobodies, but because they perpetuate "homelessness" they are constantly in the spot-light doing interviews with local television, cable access, local newspapers and magazines, press conferences, lobbying, news letters, their internet web-site and blogs and twits, demonstrations and marches and candle-light vigils and such.

a bit rambling, but well said.

Originally Posted by artwomyn

Don't start snarling at ME, about 'tying anyone's hands'! And you can quit now, with the 'homelessness existed before the 80s' rant. For the gagillianth time, I only mentioned the 80s as a starting point, because the media exposed the homeless problem at that time!

really? then all the newspaper articles on homeless world war one veterans from 1920 through the middle of the great depression mean nothing?

And liberals, didn't create the homeless problem. The war on poverty that was implemented in the 60s, became a war on the poor, by the 80s. As this country has swung more and more to the right, more and more people, have fallen into poverty.

again really? check a history book. woodrow wilsons policies cause a depression, and homelessness, as did FDRs policies. the great society plocies of johnson were supposed to end homelessness and poverty, and yet both are still with us. as for this country swinging to the right, not true, we have always been a center-right country, but our government has constantly moved to the left for the most part. bush 41, clinton, bush 43, and obama are hardly conservative. in fact obama is truly a marxist progressive. and if the democrats in congress had not blocked republican efforts to reign in fannie and freddie, and prevent the housing bubble from popping as badly as it did, then perhaps many in this country would not only not be homeless, but would still have jobs, and be making their mortgage payments.

All those manufacturing jobs that used to give blue collar workers a good living, have been eliminated. Gobs of good paying white collar jobs, have been sent overseas. Unions are practically nonexistent now. And during this great recession, we all know how unemployment has skyrocketed, and can't seem to come down. I dare you to prove, how liberals are responsible for increasing poverty and homelessness.

how about all the regulations they put on business that make it harder to make a profit? how about all the taxes that liberals put on business to make it harder to make a profit? liberals tend to be anti business, and it shows in the policies they implement, and as such, business moves their manufacturing to where it is more profitable to make things.

There might be a few homeless people, who don't want to be helped. But for those who want to be helped, and have roofs over their heads, then we need to get busy finding solutions to help them.

i have worked with the homeless, and most of them dont want to work. they like being homeless despite what they say publicly. they can eat six times per day, and when the weather turns cold they can get shelter at various places, and they even get transportation to those shelters.

If you right wing conservatives had your way, you'd make it legal to go out, and gun down all of the homeless people, and then give yourselves a pat on the back!

bull crap and you know it. we do not live in a utopia, and we cannot legislate utopia, even though liberals try.

[Chuckity]

Originally Posted by artwomyn

Don't get your knickers in a knot! I defy you to prove that there are only 100,000 homeless. I dismiss both you, and Mircea 'out of hand', because you don't provide proof, regarding what you claim to know. Even if there were 'only 100,000 chronically homeless,' that' still way too many.

You're just another poster, who thinks that the homeless don't deserve compassion at all.

Here ya go ... To fight homelessness, turn Project 50 into Project 10,000 - Los Angeles Times

A snipet:

The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development credits the efforts with a one-third decline in chronic homelessness since 2005, now at 112,000 persons nationwide.

I was off by 12,000. Sue me.

And look, even HUD says chronic homelessness has declined. Who'da thunk?

And I defy you to point to where I said that the homeless don't deserve compassion. Go on. Find it.

[cw30000]

Originally Posted by artwomyn

The homeless problem started up in the 80s, after Reagan became President. And it's been going on now, for over 30 years. Homelessness has continued to increase, since the great recession began over two years ago.

In a wealthy country like America, the homeless problem is a national disgrace. Shouldn't we use our considerable economic resources, to eliminate homelessness once and for all? And what do you think would be the best way, to go about doing so?

We need to request congress do what they do best. Pass a bill that outlaw homeless.

[Boompa]

Homelessness can not be totally "cured" unless the mentally ill are placed in a structured environment. Having worked with them, I know that we would clean them up and provide them with a secure place to sleep and they would take off and sleep under the stairs or in the cemetary.
Many of these people are living on our streets and reject our concept of how they should live

[Ultralight]

Many people have been thrown out of their houses the latest two years.

[Opyelie]

There are some people, singles and families as well, who are camping out as it were with friends and/or family as a temporary measure, but technically even though they have a roof over their head they are still "homeless" as they are depending on the kindness of others to provide shelter.

The people in shelters is also only a temporary solution as they are not meant for long term residence.

At some (or any) time these people could also be turned out onto the streets.

The bottom line is that nice as it may be in theory - "affordable housing" for EVERYONE just isn't doable. When someone HAS no income then they can AFFORD nada. SO what's your solution for those people, GIVE them free housing?

[Ultralight]

Thanks to the current foreclosure crisis a record number of people are homeless.

[Opyelie]

Originally Posted by Ultralight

Thanks to the current foreclosure crisis a record number of people are homeless.

Yes, it appears that "affordable housing" they bought during the boom wasn't quite so "affordable" after all, not once you lose a job anyway.