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....As soon as the men figure out that they are being disrespected, and treated like a social science experiment by the civilian leadership, they will leave the Corps...
How, exactly, are they being disrespected?
As has been said many times in this thread, I'm sure they used the "military is no place for a social experiment" argument against desegregation, too. Yet, magically, that didn't result in the downfall of our armed forces. Neither will this.
Women on subs are fine, as long as you staffed the sub with only women. Based on the amount of tension on a submarine, let alone the close quarters and the temptation it may cause, I don't believe a mixed crew is a good idea.
I may very well be wrong, but years of experience tell me something else.
My unit went to war w/o any women, our commander transferred the handful of women Marines we had. however, other units we were with kept their women, and I don't think a one of them kept their legs closed, it was pretty sad. We had men and women being given NJP for having sex all over the place, marriages were broken up, a few fights broke out, and one gal was caught with a seabag stuffed full of cash. She was selling sex all over the base, and one guy was refused some sexual act by her, so he blew the whistle on her.
It's not about discrimination, as if being a gay man is the same as having a different color skin.
If you fling open the door and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly, then you have just created a logistical nightmare. How long have women been a part of the active duty Naval forces? And only just now, we built a submarine with birthing and shower areas for women. Why do you think we bothered doing that? Now tell me how we address the life on a submarine when we go from having only two sexual variations of sailors, to having six? No, it is not about bigotry.
The flaw with that argument is that gays are ALREADY showering with straights. So, no need for more showers/bunks.
If the Marines overwhelmingly object, and the politicians force it on them anyway, then they are told that their professional views on this subject do not matter. They same way that some people felt disrespected by Clinton, as he used the military as his own political play thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan
As has been said many times in this thread, I'm sure they used the "military is no place for a social experiment" argument against desegregation, too. Yet, magically, that didn't result in the downfall of our armed forces. Neither will this.
C'mon, people!
That is an old argument, the Marine Corps does not tolerate bigotry, this is not about personal bias or bigotry.
Unless you think we should now force women and men to live and shower together, telling both genders to remain professional, and punish those who violate regulations. Then tell women who don't like to be ogled by their male roommates, that they are over sensitive, and probably unfit to serve, and should resign from the military.
If he's right, then it's a very, very sad commentary on the character and professionalism of our fighting men. Some 40 countries have integrated open homosexuals into their militaries, without separate accommodations, and without any difficulties whatsoever (and as early as 1974 to boot).
Why can't homosexuals comply? What makes them want to talk about, or behave like homosexuals? If they were dedicated soldiers then they would just shut-up and comply.
Why can't homosexuals comply? What makes them want to talk about, or behave like homosexuals? If they were dedicated soldiers then they would just shut-up and comply.
Why don't we change the rules:
NO talking about sexuality AT ALL.
NO mentioning your girlfriend/boyfriend, NO discussing your family, NO pictures of your lady friend back home up on your tent --- NOTHING. I mean, hell, if it's so reasonable to ask gay soldiers to do that, straight soldiers should have no problem complying as well. Equal is equal.
Seriously, City-data posters make a sorry case for the maturity of our armed forces.
Want to know how the military can implement a repeal of DADT easily? Ask ANY of our allies, including militaries that are arguably better than ours, such as the British or Israelis how THEY manage to have capable fighting forces without any of drama that so many conservatives on this board say will happen.
The military can no longer pretend to fight for freedom when they themselves discriminate without rational basis.
If the Marines overwhelmingly object, and the politicians force it on them anyway, then they are told that their professional views on this subject do not matter. They same way that some people felt disrespected by Clinton, as he used the military as his own political play thing.
Rules are handed down everyday without getting the thumbs up from the majority of service members. Why is this any different? Oh, that's right, because some people think gays are "icky".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha
That is an old argument, the Marine Corps does not tolerate bigotry, this is not about personal bias or bigotry.
It IS bigotry, though:
big·ot·ry /ˈbɪgətri/
–noun,plural-ries.
1.stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
So, you're saying the Marine Corps was never segregated. Is that it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha
Unless you think we should now force women and men to live and shower together, telling both genders to remain professional, and punish those who violate regulations. Then tell women who don't like to be ogled by their male roommates, that they are over sensitive, and probably unfit to serve, and should resign from the military.
Please cite some cases where shower rapes and homosexual sex have been any sort of an issue for ANY branch of the military. Unless you believe that there are no gays currently serving "in the closet" in today's military?
Why can't homosexuals comply? What makes them want to talk about, or behave like homosexuals? If they were dedicated soldiers then they would just shut-up and comply.
Fundamental fairness. Invidious discrimination should be routed out wherever it is found. (That and if you look at the 40 countries that have integrated open homosexuals into the military over the last 36 years you'll see there is NO NEGATIVE IMPACT WHATSOEVER).
Why should it be that a straight solider's spouse can shop at the base commissary, but the gay spouse of a military member can't? Why should that same solider get higher pay (increased housing allowance) whereas a married gay solider gets paid less? Why should a straight solider be able to bring his girlfriend to a unit picnic or other off-duty social event, but a gay one is forbidden from inviting his boyfriend?
I'm all for fairness. Why not have a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy for all sexuality? Leave sexuality out of the military entirely. If you're found our as gay, then you're kicked out. If you're found out as straight, then you're kicked out. If a male marine posts a picture on Facebook of him kissing a chick at a bar - kick him out. If he forgets to take his wedding ring off in the presence of another military member - kick him out. If he introduces his wife to anyone connected with the military - kick him out. God forbid he ever tell anyone in the military he has biological children - you'd have to kick him out.
The fact of the matter is that it's human nature to want to connect with other human beings and share with them - especially by telling them about family and loved ones.
My question is why can't the anti-gay bigots just not give a crap and do their job?
Last edited by hammertime33; 12-15-2010 at 12:21 PM..
If he's right, then it's a very, very sad commentary on the character and professionalism of our fighting men. Some 40 countries have integrated open homosexuals into their militaries, without separate accommodations, and without any difficulties whatsoever (and as early as 1974 to boot).
What makes it sad?
Some countries allow topless sunbathing/swimming on all their beaches.
Some countries allow even preteens to buy wine, and take it home.
Some countries draft all eligible people for their armed forces.
Sweden's home guard are provided automatic weapons that are kept in their homes.
Should I go on? This is the U.S.A. We are not other countries, what works there, may not work here, what works here, may not work there.
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Why?
