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Old 01-22-2011, 08:09 AM
 
1,801 posts, read 3,556,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
You bet I would have a problem with Muslims discriminating against anyone. If a Muslim B&B was denying entrance to Christians or anyone else then yep I would have just the same issue. And lobby as hard against it and kick up just as big a fuss.


I would have an issue with an Atheist,Liberal Darwinian excluding Christian Creationists Republican Tea-Partiers just as much.

For some bizarre reasons the right thinks the left has some great love affair with Islam. A ridiculous and baseless assumption. To be frank as an avowed Atheist there is little I find attractive about Islam. Or any religion for that matter. As far as I am concerned they are all as kooky and bizarre as each other and not one of them has a monopoly on the "truth". Fundamentalism is something which as an Atheist I loathe and reject more than any believer .


It scares the hell out of me and unlike most people I have first hand experience of it. My Fiance was blown up by a suicide bomber in Beyrouth over two decades ago so please do not lecture me on Islam or my love for Muslims.


I also have many Muslim friends and have travelled ( and lived) extensively ( as a single female traveller BTW) across the Middle East , and various Muslim Nations such as most of Africa and Indonesia for example so I think I have a fair understanding of Islam in all its guises. From the downright appalling and terrifying and the mundane and everyday , with everything in between.





What I will not put up with however is singling out one religion. As long as people who are religious do not impose on others , and are not a danger to others I feel everyone should be free to worship whoever they like, be it some fairies at the bottom of the garden or tree spirits, Mohammed or Buddha, Christ or the Big Lebowski. Or like myself nobody at all. Freedom of religion and from religion. Which means we treat ALL people equally.





I find social exclusion counter intuitive and quite frankly intellectually disingenuous. It is a form of social bullying and dangerous.


We all have deeply held views and all have the right to argue with those we disagree with. Discrimination however , nobody should have to put up with.

I don't care if the bullies are my side or the other side. I refuse to put up with bullying .

I grew up in a very exclusive environment where the other was meant to be excluded at all costs ( in my case the poor and socially "unacceptable" ) and i rejected this at a pretty early age.


One does not have to belong to an oppressed minority to fight for their rights. I was in a political protest meeting last night in Oxford, to save public libraries from the greedy clutches of our government. And you know what, I don't use my library, never have done really, I have always bought my own books and the issue will not affect me in the slightest. I have always been privileged enough not to have to borrow books or use the free internet service, I am not a Mother and do not need their Toddler storytelling mornings, nor am I a pensioner looking for a little social interaction, I am not homeless and do not need a warm , safe and plesant place to sit and read or use the computer.... I am not a librarian or a janitor and will not lose my job, yet this affects me because it affects them.

I realise that this issue will affect hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people who DO use its services and that it is an invaluable public service. That as a citizen and human being what affects others should be of interest to me. That solidarity is the only way we can engender a modicum of civilised interaction with each others. That's right SOLIDARITY , the big commie word. United we stand, divided we fall. That all of us are part of one big great chain and that the choices we make affect others. That every single one of our action has consequences.


I am not Gay and will stand up for their rights, I am not Muslim and will stand up for their rights, I am not Christian and will stand up for their rights, I am not Black and will stand up for their rights, I am not poor or Homeless and will stand up for their rights too.

If that makes me a kook then so be it. Anti discrimination legislation exists because we need it. As was proven by this case of bigoted B&B owners who thought their religion meant it trumped the Law.


I am fed up of religious people thinking that because they have religion they are somehow excluded from our legal framework and are a special "case". And yes that goes for Muslims too. I am an Atheist which is as valid a philosophy so can my local Humanist club stop to have paying taxes too ? Can we also get special dispensations for things which might upset us ?

And I am a liberal "Pinko/Communist/Socialist" , whatever words you can throw at me.


Whether we like it or not we are all humans, all have rights and duties and should all be treated with equal respect and equal under the law. Unless you are proving a danger to other human beings, or yourself then nobody has the right to discriminate against you.

I dislike many , many people and disapprove of many more . I still do not feel I have the right to impose my own prejudices on others under the law.


I am entitled to my views, I am even entitled to express them but do I have the right to think that because I don't like creationists I am allowed to ban them from my B&B ? Hell no. That is a slippery slope where we revert to good old racism/fascism and institutionalised and socially condonned bullying and ostracisation.

Humanity does need some framework and some civil rights and human rights legislation . These are not there to look pretty but to protect the rights of people not to be denigrated as human beings .


Muslims, Christians, Animists, Atheists, Buddhists, Humanists we are all in this big great boat together, whether we like it or not and whether we like each other or not.
I so wish I could rep you again...
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:11 AM
 
3,644 posts, read 10,944,868 times
Reputation: 5514
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
No, but a business is subject to STATE law.



Ahem....
I see... so those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs are a violation of the law? "No shirt, no shoes, no service" as well?

Well, they must be. Because you said it's so.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:13 AM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,364 posts, read 51,976,363 times
Reputation: 23808
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
I see... so those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs are a violation of the law? "No shirt, no shoes, no service" as well?

Well, they must be. Because you said it's so.
No, actually the LAW says so... I already posted a link, but I'll dig it up again for ya.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:14 AM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,364 posts, read 51,976,363 times
Reputation: 23808
Here you go... and add "sexual orientation" to their lists, as it's a protected class in many US states & in the UK (where this story originated).

Restaurants: Right to Refuse Service Lawyers | LegalMatch Law Library
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:19 AM
 
14,247 posts, read 17,932,953 times
Reputation: 13807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
I see... so those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs are a violation of the law? "No shirt, no shoes, no service" as well?

Well, they must be. Because you said it's so.
Obviously, it depends on the jurisdiction. But under English law - which is the law that applies in this case - it is illegal to refuse service on the grounds of sexual orientation. For that reason the court found against the owners.

Presumably other grounds for refusal of service are also covered by applicable law.

I don't understand why so many people seem to be okay with the owners breaking the law.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,755,060 times
Reputation: 1706
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
I see... so those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs are a violation of the law? "No shirt, no shoes, no service" as well?

Well, they must be. Because you said it's so.
Actually, the 'no shoes, no shirt, no service' signs would be perfectly legal. There are legitimate reasons for denying entrance to most any business to someone not wearing a shirt and/or shoes. Most of those reasons have to do with public health. But there are still about thirty states where it's also legal to refuse service to someone simply because they're gay; or even because you think they 'look' gay. (Someone back a few pages in this discussion has already listed those thirty states.) So, in those states that "we reserve the right...." sign would be pretty much legal. However, it would be illegal in the other twenty states. Especially if it contains the phrase "...for any reason" because you really do have to have a legitimate, legal reason to deny service to anyone.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:17 AM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,111,373 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
To me that seems a violation of this principle: "No State shall...deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."


So, a B&B owner is equivalent to the "STATE"?

Ignorance in all it's glory!
In 30 states, the law allows a Christian business owner to legally discriminate against homosexuals, but in those states the law makes it illegal for a gay business owner to discriminate against a Christian.

To me that seems an unequal protection under the law.
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:46 AM
 
59,138 posts, read 27,361,070 times
Reputation: 14297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Obviously, it depends on the jurisdiction. But under English law - which is the law that applies in this case - it is illegal to refuse service on the grounds of sexual orientation. For that reason the court found against the owners.

Presumably other grounds for refusal of service are also covered by applicable law.

I don't understand why so many people seem to be okay with the owners breaking the law.
Maybe the law should be changed.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:08 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,111,373 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough View Post
Maybe the law should be changed.
What if the only grocery store in a small town decides to have a white, heterosexual, Christian only policy? Or the only health clinic in a county refuses to treat Jews?

Wouldn't it be nice if Greyhound had a section in the front of their buses where only white people could sit?
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:49 PM
 
14,247 posts, read 17,932,953 times
Reputation: 13807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough View Post
Maybe the law should be changed.
There is a process for that and that process does not involve breaking the law before it is changed.
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