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Are you seriously suggesting that Israel has never attempted to rely on diplomacy with her neighbors? Seriously? (That's actually rhetorical. See below.) This.
Look, I'm not suggesting that Israel can do/has done no wrong in the history of its existence. That would be like saying the U.S. has done no wrong in the history of our existence. We have done wrong, and recently so (invading a sovereign nation under false pretenses, Abu Ghraib, waterboarding anyone?).
With that said, I am going to bow out of this discussion, because I always find myself becoming extremely angry, particularly at those with whom I generally fall on the same political side as, who have steadfastly refused to even entertain arguments that don't comport to a decision they've already come to, without acknowledging facts that dispute or disprove their arguments.
My problem with Israel is that they have not made meaningful attempts to engage the Palestinian populations of Gaza and the West Bank. They have maintained an effective economic blockade which have kept them poor and continued to build settlements in the West Bank on their land.
They have certainly made peace with Egypt and Jordan. But that does not help the security problem when it comes to the Palestinians. A durable peace has to start by bringing the Palestinians onside.
For a people who want all Jews dead, they certainly seem willing to negotiate.
Crap. This is their current Charter. Not an opinion piece from the leftist Guardian from four and a half years ago.
Some excerpts from the Hamas Charter:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery. The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.
One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about UNTIL MUSLIMS FIGHT THE JEWS AND KILL THEM, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Last edited by lamontnow; 02-03-2011 at 02:32 PM..
This is a great comment and mirrors comments I have made elsewhere. Israel has squandered 30 years of military and economic superiority where she could have worked for a satisfactory peace settlement from a position of strength.
actually, i think they should have used that advantage to decimate their enemies. but america pulled the strings on what was going to happen with that superiority not me or israel.
and of course hamas is the legit government of gaza. you give muslims a democracy and they will vote away their freedom in favor of islam.
Are you seriously suggesting that Israel has never attempted to rely on diplomacy with her neighbors? Seriously? (That's actually rhetorical. See below.) This.
Look, I'm not suggesting that Israel can do/has done no wrong in the history of its existence. That would be like saying the U.S. has done no wrong in the history of our existence. We have done wrong, and recently so (invading a sovereign nation under false pretenses, Abu Ghraib, waterboarding anyone?).
With that said, I am going to bow out of this discussion, because I always find myself becoming extremely angry, particularly at those with whom I generally fall on the same political side as, who have steadfastly refused to even entertain arguments that don't comport to a decision they've already come to, without acknowledging facts that dispute or disprove their arguments.
This is how I feel. Israel's neighbors literally elect people who call for ALL Jews to die and the imposition of a theocracy on Israel . . . and the problem is the Israelis?
Huh? At one point do the Palestinians get to accept responsibility for their own actions? At one point do we tell people that if they want a state they have to act like statesmen? At what point do we say that it's not okay to behave like this? A democratically elected Nazi is still a Nazi. You are not entitled to vote for Nazis and then demand your neighbors honor your wishes to murder them.
FYI, I would love to see the problem settled and a two state solution in place. But the KKK is not the way to get there. When one talks about hearts and minds well that's a two way street. Hamas is nothing but a dead end. People who fail to acknowledge this hurt the very people they propose to help.
This is how I feel. Israel's neighbors literally elect people who call for ALL Jews to die and the imposition of a theocracy on Israel . . . and the problem is the Israelis?
Huh? At one point do the Palestinians get to accept responsibility for their own actions? At one point do we tell people that if they want a state they have to act like statesmen? At what point do we say that it's not okay to behave like this? A democratically elected Nazi is still a Nazi. You are not entitled to vote for Nazis and then demand your neighbors honor your wishes to murder them.
FYI, I would love to see the problem settled and a two state solution in place. But the KKK is not the way to get there. When one talks about hearts and minds well that's a two way street. Hamas is nothing but a dead end. People who fail to acknowledge this hurt the very people they propose to help.
And do the Israelis take responsibility for their actions? The settlements, the economic blockade? It takes two to tango and both sides need to climb down from conflict if there is ever to be a settlement. Right now, Israel has a dominant position so maybe they should be the ones asking the Palestinians to dance.
My problem with Israel is that they have not made meaningful attempts to engage the Palestinian populations of Gaza and the West Bank. They have maintained an effective economic blockade which have kept them poor and continued to build settlements in the West Bank on their land.
They have certainly made peace with Egypt and Jordan. But that does not help the security problem when it comes to the Palestinians. A durable peace has to start by bringing the Palestinians onside.
You're apparently unaware of the history of negotiations and and the wide ranging concessions offered by Israel and rejected by the PA:
Dennis Ross was intimately involved in the Camp David negotiations. Mideast Dispatch Archive: Dennis Ross on the “Camp David myths” of the anti-Israel crowd
Ross confirms that Barak offered Arafat all of Gaza, a net of 97 percent of the West Bank, 2 percent of pre-1967 Israel, and a capital in east Jerusalem. Ross says "those who say there were cantons, this is completely untrue. [The territory offered in the West Bank] was contiguous."
Ross says Arafat was offered a "Right of Return" for refugees to the nascent Palestinian state and $30 Billion fund to compensate refugees, and Arafat turned it all down, against the pleadings of his own Palestinian advisors.
DENNIS ROSS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT CAMP DAVID AND BEYOND
A summary by Dennis Ross of what was offered and what took place at the Camp David and Taba negotiations:
1. Yasser Arafat presented no ideas at Camp David.
2. The Taba talks would have happened in late September if not for the outbreak of violence. Arafat knew the US was ready to make a proposal and thus promised to control the violence, but didn't. (I think he was hoping that he could leverage the violence into political gain.)
3. All of Gaza and a net of 97% of the West Bank were offered at Taba.
4. The West Bank area offered was contiguous, not "cantons".
5. The Jordan valley would be under Israeli patrol for only 6 years.
6. The Palestinians were offered a capital in eastern Jerusalem.
7. There would be a "Right of Return" to the nascent Palestinian state.
8. A $30 Billion fund to compensate refugees would be set up.
9. Taba was rushed due to Clinton's, not Barak's, end of term.
10. Members of the PA delegation thought Taba was the best they could hope to get and encouraged Arafat to accept it.
11. Arafat accepted everything he was given at Taba, but rejected everything he was supposed to give.
12. Arafat scuttled the Camp David offer. Arafat scuttled the Taba offer. Arafat scuttled the Mitchell plan. Arafat scuttled the Tenet plan. Arafat scuttled the Zinni plan.
Basically the same deal was offered to Abbas in 2008. He turned it down.
My problem with Israel is that they have not made meaningful attempts to engage the Palestinian populations of Gaza and the West Bank. They have maintained an effective economic blockade which have kept them poor and continued to build settlements in the West Bank on their land.
They have certainly made peace with Egypt and Jordan. But that does not help the security problem when it comes to the Palestinians. A durable peace has to start by bringing the Palestinians onside.
That is a gross misreading of history. Repeated efforts have been made. The economic blockage was instituted not because the Israelis are heartless but because the Palestinians have responded to most overtures of peace with violence -- shelling Israeli cities, filling their newspapers with anti-Semitism and voting for people who simply want all Jews killed and dumped into the sea.
FYI, the Palestinians have been funded to the tune of millions. They could build a society if they wanted to. They would rather indulge in nonsense about theocracy and murder. That dysfunctional society is their creation and their creation alone
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
I don't know who my neighbors are voting for and I didn't realize the KKK was a political party one could vote for.
As to the rest of your post, see my post on outrage over conspiracy theories, as I once again express my outrage over your posts.
Why are you shrugging off Palestinian leaders who call for the murder of all Jews? I'm sorry but I'm still at a loss here. You condemn the Israelis repeatedly for not respecting the results of the elections. Yet you fail to acknowledge why they don't respect them. The KKK is the KKK. The covenant is the covenant. It is an evil document and it is still held dear by Hamas leadership today.
This is the pattern of the world. The Israelis reveal themselves to be imperfect under difficult circumstances and we're supposed to gather our outrage in large quantities. Meanwhile the Palestinians elect genocidal leaders who advocate theocracy and that's supposed to be just peachy.
That is a gross misreading of history. Repeated efforts have been made. The economic blockage was instituted not because the Israelis are heartless but because the Palestinians have responded to most overtures of peace with violence -- shelling Israeli cities, filling their newspapers with anti-Semitism and voting for people who simply want all Jews killed and dumped into the sea.
FYI, the Palestinians have been funded to the tune of millions. They could build a society if they wanted to. They would rather indulge in nonsense about theocracy and murder. That dysfunctional society is their creation and their creation alone
Why are you shrugging off Palestinian leaders who call for the murder of all Jews? I'm sorry but I'm still at a loss here. You condemn the Israelis repeatedly for not respecting the results of the elections. Yet you fail to acknowledge why they don't respect them. The KKK is the KKK. The covenant is the covenant. It is an evil document and it is still held dear by Hamas leadership today.
This is the pattern of the world. The Israelis reveal themselves to be imperfect under difficult circumstances and we're supposed to gather our outrage in large quantities. Meanwhile the Palestinians elect genocidal leaders who advocate theocracy and that's supposed to be just peachy.
Again why?
Look ... at some point, Israel either needs to make peace with the Palestinians or kill all of them. The current stand-off cannot continue for ever. It simply isn't tenable. So which one is it? I prefer the former.
And do the Israelis take responsibility for their actions? The settlements, the economic blockade? It takes two to tango and both sides need to climb down from conflict if there is ever to be a settlement. Right now, Israel has a dominant position so maybe they should be the ones asking the Palestinians to dance.
I do not agree with everything the Israelis do. But please explain why no Jews should be allowed to live in the West Bank. Please also explain to me what the Israelis were supposed to do in the aftermath of the suicide bombers.
Because the answer seems to be make peace. Well that's nice. That's even supported by most Israelis. But you need two people to make peace. The Palestinians elected leaders who don't want peace. They want an Islamic theocracy. How do you make peace with people who call for you to be dead?
You don't.
And the Palestinians have only themselves to blame for that fact. They are not the complete powerless innocent people here despite the nonsense in the Arab and Islamic media. They have been funded by the millions. The truth is that they lost a few wars they started. They cling to idiotic fantasies about killing all Jews and pushing another ugly Islamic state in place of Israel. At some point one just puts up fences, quarantines the crazies and hopes for the best.
That's where Israel is right now.
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