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What about the theft of the land from the Jewish people by the Romans? There have been Jews living in that area constantly throughout the ages. The Jews that were forcibly removed by Romans from the area are the ones scattered around the world. It is their descendants that are now living in Israel. So are you saying that the all the Jews worldwide not living in Israel should be compensated by Rome (or Italians) today? I think you are not interested in the justice for the Jewish people and are not seeing the full picture but only in justice for the Palestinian Arabs.
I don't have a problem with Jews living in Palestine. I have a problem with Jews "returning" (to a land they never set foot upon) 2000 years later, carrying out a terrorist campaign to conquer the country, subjugating the local population and driving them out, declaring independence and refusing to stop taking more of the rightful inhabitants land. If that makes me some sort of rabid anti-semite (it doesn't) then so be it.
If you're honest with yourself you will realise that Jews migrated to Israel because of the persecution they suffered in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. I can understand that motivation, I don't blame them for wanting to leave. I can absolutely sympathise with the population for making the decision to leave Europe, I would do the same thing if presented with a choice of leaving or facing the gas chambers.
But that does not for a second give them a right to do unto others what was done unto them. The modern day Warsaw Ghetto is the Gaza Strip and the modern day Nazi's are the leaders of Israel, none of whom were actually born in Israel unlike the people whose lives they have ruined. The justification which Israeli's attempt to make for their conquest is biblical and they argue that God (the divine real estate agent) granted them this land. If there has ever been a more horrific argument in favour of colonisation than that then I am yet to hear it.
Whatever the argument on either side as to who has claim to what (and they will never agree),...what right has anyone to say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth? That anyone, for that matter, should be wiped off the face of the earth. That alone is a sign that one of the parties is irrational.
I think they could agree to some extent and make concessions as long as it was recognized that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews. That is not negotiable. The city is not divisible.
But that does not for a second give them a right to do unto others what was done unto them. The modern day Warsaw Ghetto is the Gaza Strip and the modern day Nazi's are the leaders of Israel, none of whom were actually born in Israel unlike the people whose lives they have ruined. The justification which Israeli's attempt to make for their conquest is biblical and they argue that God (the divine real estate agent) granted them this land. If there has ever been a more horrific argument in favour of colonisation than that then I am yet to hear it.
Eoin
I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for someone with such a warped sense of reality. You lecture people about property rights of foreign nations when so many territorial conflicts can be traced directly to the actions of your own country? How can you possibly compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto? Did the residents of Poland ever get terrorized by the prisoners of Warsaw's ghetto? For example as we speak Gaza is getting PUMMELED by Israeli bombs because of a Palestinian missile strike in Beer Sheva, one of Israel's largest country.
Whatever the argument on either side as to who has claim to what (and they will never agree),...what right has anyone to say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth? That anyone, for that matter, should be wiped off the face of the earth. That alone is a sign that one of the parties is irrational.
I think they could agree to some extent and make concessions as long as it was recognized that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews. That is not negotiable. The city is not divisible.
Any idea based on promoting religiosity, much less the idea of a whole nation on the premise of religion, is going to meet the same fate. Much less when it tramples on freedoms of others who have historically been at odds.
I don't have a problem with Jews living in Palestine. I have a problem with Jews "returning" (to a land they never set foot upon) 2000 years later, carrying out a terrorist campaign to conquer the country, subjugating the local population and driving them out, declaring independence and refusing to stop taking more of the rightful inhabitants land. If that makes me some sort of rabid anti-semite (it doesn't) then so be it.
But that does not for a second give them a right to do unto others what was done unto them. The modern day Warsaw Ghetto is the Gaza Strip and the modern day Nazi's are the leaders of Israel, none of whom were actually born in Israel unlike the people whose lives they have ruined. The justification which Israeli's attempt to make for their conquest is biblical and they argue that God (the divine real estate agent) granted them this land. If there has ever been a more horrific argument in favour of colonisation than that then I am yet to hear it.
Eoin
You have several facts that are not correct:
1) Jews did not carry out a terrorist campaign to conquer the country, subjugating the local population and driving them out, declaring independence.
Israel's independence was granted by a United Nations decision and Israel was attacked by its neighbors who were bent on Israel's destruction.
2) Many of Israel's younger leaders of today were born in Israel or grew up in Israel from a very young age.
3) Modern day Gaza is nothing like a Nazi ghetto. I suggest you read up on the actual facts before daring to make such a comparison.
I'm surpised that you'd get your keffiyeh in a twist by the suggestion that the liability of your ancestors to my ancestors had anything to teach us about the current Israeli-Palestinian situation. If you'd have any inclination to allow yourself to be instructed, you would take this point to heart: it's easy to adjudicate on matters of equity and justice when our own assets aren't at stake. But when our assets are at stake, well, there's always special circumstances that need to be considered...
So, regrettably, you've clarified that the statute of limitations on my claim for compensation has passed. So that's me out of pocket. No crime if there's no-one left to remember it, I suppose.
But if victimized people are still alive, then the claim is still valid, yes? This is the thrust of your argument on behalf of the Palestinians. Then what do you say to the millions of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Libyans, Ghanans, Somalians, Tanzanians, Ugandans, Kenyans, Malawians, Zambians, Gambians, Botswanans, Lesothoans, Swazis, Zimbabweans, and Sudanese still alive who remember when your country was siphoning away their wealth? This is the same wealth which you *personally* enjoy as a citizen of Britain. This is no historic injustice by any means...the people affected are still alive, so by the same argument you make on behalf of the Palestinians, where does that put you?
Maybe your animosity toward anyone with an Israeli passport or your admiration of anyone wearing the green headband of Hamas prevents you from reflecting on your own guilt, but by your own definition you're as much a criminal as any Israeli.
So the only question here is what you, Eoin (pronounced Owen), plan to do to atone for your crime. What you do will stand in evidence of what calibre of man you really are.
I've thrown the gauntlet down to you, if you feel that I am in part responsible or that I am benefitting from the tribulations of your ancestors in a way which you are not, then PM me your bank details and I will instruct a BACS transfer for all the money which I have. I'm being 100% serious, if you can justify an argument which concludes that I live in relative opulence while you are living in squalor as the result of my ancestors actions then I will be glad to help.
If my ancestors screwed over your ancestors and this has left you destitute or otherwise less well off than myself (I earn £23k/year if this helps you decide) then I will gladly do the right thing and fund you. All I want is a short declaration as to why I'm giving you this money and your bank details. I have imposed no prescription or limitation on your claim against me, I will judge your claim on its merits.
You know as well as I do that this situation applies to Palestinians who have been dispossessed of their land, their livelihoods and their honour. It has happened within the last couple of generations and continues to happen to this day. The Israeli's don't compensate or offer a right of return to the affected peoples. The Israeli's have directly benefitted from the land which belongs to others who remain alive living a life of destitution in camps and makeshift accomodation.
I have a feeling that you will abandon my challenge as regards your Native American ancestry (though it would amuse me greatly if you did not), and I'm amused that you endeavour to compare me to a member of Hamas. Maybe I'll be the first hardline atheist to subscribe to a patently religious organisation. Though ironically enough I think that the Israeli's are the real religious extremists, they stole somebody elses land with the attempted justification that God justified it. Whatever valid criticisms you want to level at Hamas, they're not any more nutty than that,
You raise the interesting issue of the British Empire. It's an interesting issue because you've already concluded that I will disagree that many parts of the Commonwealth deserve to be compensated. This is almost humorous because you couldn't be more wrong. From the list of countries you mentioned India is perhaps the most prominent and lack of time prohibits me from dealing with each in turn so I'll stick to this one.
The UK currently occupies 0.00% of India, but you could make the argument that mismanagement of the Indian economy led to lesser GDP growth than might otherwise have been the case. Then again you could argue that the UK brought an efficient governmental system and brought railroad technology which enchanced economic output. It would be difficult if not impossible to put an actual value on the cost/benefit to modern day Indians from the period of British colonial rule. Certainly many Indians suffered in the famine which was in large part caused by British interference in the agricultural system, in the Indian mutiny and subsequent power struggles in which British troops quelled rebellion with violence, however it would be difficult if not impossible to quantify what Britain should actually owe to modern day Indians, though I would not be adverse to the results of an academic study of this were it to show that Britain had some liability for the decline of the Indian economy.
However this contrasts sharply with Palestine. In Palestine it is very easy to quantify what the Israeli's have cost the Palestinians. If a Palestinian has the title deeds to a property in Israel which they used to occupy before being prevented from returning after 1948, then it would be straightforward for Israel to permit the occupiers to return, or alternatively provide the finance for the original residents to build an equivalently sized home elsewhere. This is not only common sense, it was part of the UN resolution on Israel from 1948 which stipulates that Israel must do this. Israel is in breech of its obligations under international law, and has the hypocrisy to claim its own legitimacy as a nation state under the same resolution which it defies!
Such compensation may not make up for the decades of suffering that the Palestinians have endured, but it is a damn site more than the Israeli's have offered thus far as recompense. You would do well to consider your position carefully in your future responses to me because whilst you endeavour to slur me with some association with Hamas, it is you who are defending the practises of a pariah state which contravenes international law on a whim.
1) Jews did not carry out a terrorist campaign to conquer the country, subjugating the local population and driving them out, declaring independence.
Israel's independence was granted by a United Nations decision and Israel was attacked by its neighbors who were bent on Israel's destruction.
2) Many of Israel's younger leaders of today were born in Israel or grew up in Israel from a very young age.
3) Modern day Gaza is nothing like a Nazi ghetto. I suggest you read up on the actual facts before daring to make such a comparison.
I like you, you are questioning facts and it is facts which are the basis of my argument. So long as you commit to dealing in facts then we can accomplish something. To deal with your points in turn,
1: Jewish terrorism to establish the state of Israel.
You are correct, the UN passed a resolution in 1948 granting Israel sovereignty. What is important to note is the period leading up to the UN resolution, because the UN resolution was passed because of the circumstances. Britain was granted control by the League of Nations (the precursor to the UN) after the Ottoman Empire collapsed. At that point (1918) the population of what is now called Israel was largely Arab, though there had been a trickle of Jewish immigrants moving to the area from the late 19th Century. There were also some indigenous Jewish people who had lived in the area for thousands of years, however both groups at this point were heavily outnumbered by the indigenous Arabs. After the increasing anti-semitism in Europe epitomised by 1930's Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, there was a mass exodus of Jews from Europe fleeing persecution. With the massive increase in the numbers of foreign Jews arriving in the country, there were riots and people on both sides (both Arabs and Jews) were victims of racial violence by the other side. Britain reacted to this by releasing what was called the White Paper of 1939. (In Britain a law passed by our Parliament is called a "white paper" because the finalised law is printed on white paper.) The 1939 White Paper restricted Jewish immigration to the equivalent of 25,000 migrants per year for a maximum of 5 years, after which time no more migrants would be permitted without the consent of the Arab population, which is tantamount to saying that after 5 years all immigration of Jews to Palestine would be forbidden.
It was after the second world war that things got out of hand. Throughout the war, Jews immigrated illegally into Palestine, Britain did not have the manpower to stop it while waging a total war with Nazi Germany. This constant flow of Jewish refugees to Palestine continued illegally, against the wishes of Britain and the local Arab population. Tens of thousands of Jews immigrated to the land illegally, Jewish terrorist organisations the Haganah, Irgun, Stern Gang and Jewish Resistance Movement blew up hotels, trains, railroad stations, even the British embassy in Rome. Their demands were a stop to the immigration controls which were preventing more Jews from arriving. They co-ordinated a terrorist movement which made Britain station 100,000 troops in Palestine alone to try and keep order. (For comparison the entire British army today has 140,000 personnel.) It was only the continued violence by Jewish terrorists and the failure to come to a resolution which led a bankrupt Britain to accede to the newly formed United Nations. As you say, the UN agreed to a the idea of a Jewish state as a means to stop the spiralling ethnic violence, they had no choice as they had no other real option given the circumstances. The Arabs did not accept this resolution and as you say, this led to the war. However, without the actions of Jewish terrorist organisations which set out from the beginning to setup a Zionist state then there would have been no Israel because there would not have been more illegal Jewish immigrants moving to Palestine. That is why I say that Jews carried out a terrorist campaign to conquer the country, if you read the memoirs of David Ben Gurion it is clear that this was the Zionists intention from the beginning. To take control by any means necessary, up to and including violence and expulsion of the Arabs.
2) Many of Israel's younger leaders of today were born in Israel or grew up in Israel from a very young age.
With the exception of one interim Prime Minister, the Prime Ministers of Israel have always been born outwith the country which is all that I meant by this.
3) Modern day Gaza is nothing like a Nazi ghetto. I suggest you read up on the actual facts before daring to make such a comparison
I'm well aware of the facts and that is why I'm so confident in making the comparison. There are mild differences of course, but Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto effectively amount to the same thing. The powerful abusing the weak, cutting off their food supplies when it suits them, bombing them periodically, shooting the Palestinians dead for the mildest infraction, keeping them in a state of perpetual destitution, running media campaigns against them to blacken their name. Preventing them from leaving Gaza to seek lifesaving medical treatment, ignoring international condemnation, putting artillery fire "by accident" (Really?) onto the UN foodstore the people relied on the feed themselves. There are enough similarities for the comparison to be made.
I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for someone with such a warped sense of reality. You lecture people about property rights of foreign nations when so many territorial conflicts can be traced directly to the actions of your own country? How can you possibly compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto? Did the residents of Poland ever get terrorized by the prisoners of Warsaw's ghetto? For example as we speak Gaza is getting PUMMELED by Israeli bombs because of a Palestinian missile strike in Beer Sheva, one of Israel's largest country.
Accuse me of anything you like buddy but don't try and pull the hypocrisy card because it doesn't wash. I'm well aware that many of the worlds territorial disputes (including this one) are largely if not totally caused by the actions of the British Empire. I've never denied that nor have I ever even sought to.
You ask me how I can compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. You've actually stunned me here because on the one hand you concede that Gaza is being 'pummeled' by the Israeli military with F-16's and Apache Helicopter Gunships, on a territory which is blockaded by Israel and the people are malnourished and have insufficient water for sanitation and insufficient fuel for electricity. (Solely due to the blockade.) You then without any sense of irony claim that the Palestinians are 'terrorising' the Israeli's and claim that I'm the victim of a warped sense of reality. Hahahaha mate you deserve an Oscar for your comedy performance! I know people often get quite snide online and say, "ooh you make me laugh" when what they really mean is, "ooh you've pissed me off", but in this case you have actually got me laughing my head off hahaha.
I like you, you are questioning facts and it is facts which are the basis of my argument. So long as you commit to dealing in facts then we can accomplish something. To deal with your points in turn,
3) Modern day Gaza is nothing like a Nazi ghetto. I suggest you read up on the actual facts before daring to make such a comparison
I'm well aware of the facts and that is why I'm so confident in making the comparison. There are mild differences of course, but Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto effectively amount to the same thing. The powerful abusing the weak, cutting off their food supplies when it suits them, bombing them periodically, shooting the Palestinians dead for the mildest infraction, keeping them in a state of perpetual destitution, running media campaigns against them to blacken their name. Preventing them from leaving Gaza to seek lifesaving medical treatment, ignoring international condemnation, putting artillery fire "by accident" (Really?) onto the UN foodstore the people relied on the feed themselves. There are enough similarities for the comparison to be made.
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