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You're getting closer...except you haven't told me what religion was actually established as a result of this.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an estalishment of religion."
An establishment of any religion violates the Establishment Clause. Prayer is inherently religious in nature, and so therefore having school officials promote prayer before taking a test is promoting religion, which is prohibited by the Constitution. It doesn't matter if the prayers are non-denominational, led by Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddists or atheists. There's no respecting any establishment of religion. It's ironclad, and was one of the things the Framers were most concerned with.
The historical context of the Framers is the religious wars of the 18th century. The French and Indian War, 30 Years' War, many of Napoleon's wars, were inherently religious. One of the most ingenious ideas of the Framers was to stay out of those foreign entanglements by stating at the very outset that the United States was not going to be a part of any of those religious wars. They weren't going to join one denomination or another, and thus get themselves inevitably sucked into Europeans fighting over Catholics v. Protestants, or anything like that. They saw the complete disunity and havoc that state-mandated or led religions could have on a society.
This prayer was voluntary. Not forced. In fact, my public school just opened a new Christian club for believers in God. There was a poll in our school paper saying that of the nearly 200 students polled, 90% believe in God, 3% did not and 7% were unsure. 71% of the students said we should allow prayers as well. There was also a protest among some students that were upset our school had a Gay/straight alliance club, but no Christian club and thus one was created.
So, I don't really think I would be "forcing" my beliefs.
Except that you would be forcing them onto the kids who are agonistic or athiest or who are simply of a different religion or denomination.
Which has been consistently and constantly found against the law by the supreme court, even if "voluntary".
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In fact, my public school just opened a new Christian club for believers in God.
If it's student-led, then it's fine. My school had a "prayer at the pole" thing, but it was completely student led, and teachers or other authority figures didn't participate at all.
If it's an authority-led club, then if someone takes issue with it, then it will go without a fight on the school's behalf.
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There was also a protest among some students that were upset our school had a Gay/straight alliance club, but no Christian club and thus one was created.
Establishing a gay/straight alliance club establishes no religion.
Having a teacher-led Christian club does.
So, again, as long as the christian club is not teacher led, then it's fine.
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So, I don't really think I would be "forcing" my beliefs.
Nor would those in the gay/straight alliance club.
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith... we need believing people."
- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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Originally Posted by chielgirl
And if the school led praying to Allah during the day???
That would be okay for you?
I am not a Catholic and I've bowed my head during one of their prayers. I've lived in Muslim countries before and have no problem with stopping what I was doing to be cognizant towards those who felt the conviction of what they do. Will it really hurt anyone to show some courtesy & tolerance towards others? This wasn't a matter of policy that was being acted out - it was prayer (hopefully that everyone will pass the test). I've lived all over and have learned which hills are worth fighting (and dying) on and which aren't.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,300 posts, read 4,409,483 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith... we need believing people."
- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933
As is typical of politicians and those seeking to gain power, they say what they think people want to hear. Once he was in power, his idea of what people should be faithful to, was quite different.
I am not a Catholic and I've bowed my head during one of their prayers. I've lived in Muslim countries before and have no problem with stopping what I was doing to be cognizant towards those who felt the conviction of what they do. Will it really hurt anyone to show some courtesy & tolerance towards others? This wasn't a matter of policy that was being acted out - it was prayer (hopefully that everyone will pass the test). I've lived all over and have learned which hills are worth fighting (and dying) on and which aren't.
I've no problem with prayer, or other religions.
However, teacher/principal/authority-led prayer in schools have been ruled constantly and consistantly illegal.
I never said that. But they have apparently ruled in an unconstitutional way. Not that that sort of thing has never happened before.
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Originally Posted by Phantasy Tokoro
You apparently didn't read the "non-denominational" part.
Any religious prayer, even if a non-specific religious prayer that covers many religions (but never all), is wrong and against what the courts have ruled in every single case since the 1960s case.
Authority-led prayer in public schools have been ruled illegal.
Constantly, and consistently.
There may or may not be a specific "law" in the books regarding such, however, it has been ruled time and time again that authority led religious prayer do not belong in schools.
Not that prayer itself doesn't belong in schools, that's what the moment of silence is for, not to mention that kids ARE allowed to pray on their own time as long as it doesn't disrupt school procedure.
There is no law stating such thing. The Constitution certainly doesn't state that.
As is typical of politicians and those seeking to gain power, they say what they think people want to hear. Once he was in power, his idea of what people should be faithful to, was quite different.
Does it matter? Doesn't every person act in self-interest? This would include EVERY single person opposed to secular ideas in public institutions. Their self-interest is in professing their religion. And so did Hitler.
Besides, Hitler was into socialization of the religion, and this was one of the steps he took to that effect. He wanted a brand of Christianity for all to follow (easier to govern under one umbrella than multiple sects, much less multiple religions).
And to prevent such debacles is is exactly why separation of church and state was professed by the founders and instituted via the first amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an estalishment of religion."
An establishment of any religion violates the Establishment Clause. Prayer is inherently religious in nature, and so therefore having school officials promote prayer before taking a test is promoting religion, which is prohibited by the Constitution. It doesn't matter if the prayers are non-denominational, led by Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddists or atheists. There's no respecting any establishment of religion. It's ironclad, and was one of the things the Framers were most concerned with.
The historical context of the Framers is the religious wars of the 18th century. The French and Indian War, 30 Years' War, many of Napoleon's wars, were inherently religious. One of the most ingenious ideas of the Framers was to stay out of those foreign entanglements by stating at the very outset that the United States was not going to be a part of any of those religious wars. They weren't going to join one denomination or another, and thus get themselves inevitably sucked into Europeans fighting over Catholics v. Protestants, or anything like that. They saw the complete disunity and havoc that state-mandated or led religions could have on a society.
So the states that had official religions at the time of the signing of the Constitution were in violation?
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