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This is the Ultimate Liberal Calling Card right here. Put Abortion/rape/medical complications in the same sentence and you have hit the ultimate trifecta!! All other reasons for getting an abortion fly right out of the window! It's all about the rape! And the medical conditions!! Nope...nothing about personal responsiblity! Gotta have that Rape Card! Almost as powerful as pulling the race card anytime someone mentions black issues!
Liberals should be proud.
Well, one had some dude screw her while she was unconscious when she was about 15. I guess the proper why for her to deal with it would be force to her to carry a rape baby at a young age. Might teach her a lesson about underage drinking...
The other had the embryo developing in a fallopian tube and she wanted to keep the baby. I can't believe she could be so irresponsible as to allow her body to cause the fertilized egg to not settle in her uterus. She should have been made to carry a fetus that most likely would not have been viable anyways AND would have likely killed her. She should have lived through several months of a pregnancy that she wanted only to miscarry or die due to complications. I'll tell her she is an irresponsible and selfish ***** next time I see her on your behalf.
What is really sad is that this thread really says nothing about abortion or mothers.
What it portrays is that any crank will believe whatever fictional and flimsy evidence presented that agrees with them, and then demonize anyone who doesn't fall over and agree with their deluded logic. It also shows pretty conclusively that cranks are as likely believe any real proof as my dog is likely to do my taxes. At least my dog makes people happy by being himself, most cranks are about as useful to society as a small pile of what he leaves on other peoples lawns.
The "study" that worldnutdaily doesn't link to, because it would take even less time then normal to find they are making crap up, is about as accurate as polling a room full of 6 year olds if candy is good...then stating in a study that candy really makes you live longer.
shhhhhh! Don't tell them. It's just a woman's choice...nevermind the risks or bad things that happen as a result. We've all heard that women suffer horribly from the mental issues associated with ripping their babies from their wombs...but it's easier to just ignore it.
Nevermind the fact that the loving thing to do would be to help the woman deliver the kid -- and then care for him/her or make sure he/she gets a loving set of parents.
Oh, for goodness sake! Those of us who have actually had an abortion (I aborted at 22 weeks under the care of my perinatalogist at a large university hospital) know first-hand that the words "ripped from their wombs" are inflammatory. D&E is one type of procedure, but women at an advanced stage of pregnancy are often induced, which is the type of procedure I experienced.
I will not stoop to minimize the emotional effect, because I know the pain firsthand. It was absolutely devastating, but I knew why I was doing it, and I have never wavered in my belief that it was the right thing to do. I experienced tremendous grief, yes, but I have no regrets. As to my long-term emotional health, I'm perfectly stable. I saw someone who helped me sort through my emotions in the immediate aftermath of my abortion, but I have not required long-term care. I was never suicidal, and I'm certainly not now.
That said, I am concerned about the correlation (not causation) found in the study, because I think there is a contingent of women who are not getting the emotional support they need. I was very fortunate to have excellent medical and psychological care during and after my abortion. I was perfectly open with my family and friends, who rallied around me, regardless of whether or not they would have made the same decision.
I remain a strong advocate of abortion rights, but I also think women should not be shamed or left alone with their grief in the aftermath.
Well, one had some dude screw her while she was unconscious when she was about 15. I guess the proper why for her to deal with it would be force to her to carry a rape baby at a young age. Might teach her a lesson about underage drinking...
The other had the embryo developing in a fallopian tube and she wanted to keep the baby. I can't believe she could be so irresponsible as to allow her body to cause the fertilized egg to not settle in her uterus. She should have been made to carry a fetus that most likely would not have been viable anyways AND would have likely killed her. She should have lived through several months of a pregnancy that she wanted only to miscarry or die due to complications. I'll tell her she is an irresponsible and selfish ***** next time I see her on your behalf.
Frank (?), the issue is much larger than your two acquaintances. Of course there can be legitimate reasons for an abortion. Rape and medical conditions are the two areas in which I actually will budge on abortion.
The bigger issue is that no one on the liberal left cares to talk about the irresponsible side of abortion. The side of people who chose not to use birth control, or abstain from sex to begin with, if they were'nt ready to have a child. NO ONE mentions that. It's ALWAYS about rape and medical conditions.
Why is that? Why is it that the liberal left will not discuss the personal responsibility elephant in the room?
Oh, for goodness sake! Those of us who have actually had an abortion (I aborted at 22 weeks under the care of my perinatalogist at a large university hospital) know first-hand that the words "ripped from their wombs" are inflammatory. D&E is one type of procedure, but women at an advanced stage of pregnancy are often induced, which is the type of procedure I experienced.
I will not stoop to minimize the emotional effect, because I know the pain firsthand. It was absolutely devastating, but I knew why I was doing it, and I have never wavered in my belief that it was the right thing to do. I experienced tremendous grief, yes, but I have no regrets. As to my long-term emotional health, I'm perfectly stable. I saw someone who helped me sort through my emotions in the immediate aftermath of my abortion, but I have not required long-term care. I was never suicidal, and I'm certainly not now.
That said, I am concerned about the correlation (not causation) found in the study, because I think there is a contingent of women who are not getting the emotional support they need. I was very fortunate to have excellent medical and psychological care during and after my abortion. I was perfectly open with my family and friends, who rallied around me, regardless of whether or not they would have made the same decision.
I remain a strong advocate of abortion rights, but I also think women should not be shamed or left alone with their grief in the aftermath.
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
My problem with the study is that it takes the women out of the context of their lives and into a vacuum of a woman undergoing an abortion. An unplanned pregnancy will cause emotional stress, add to that any variables such as relationship and family woes. It does not address suicidal ideation in women who have had an unplanned pregnancy and kept the baby, nor un unplanned pregnancy where the baby is given up for adoption. As those are the 3 options, presenting the results of only one is not valuable.
Frank (?), the issue is much larger than your two acquaintances. Of course there can be legitimate reasons for an abortion. Rape and medical conditions are the two areas in which I actually will budge on abortion.
The bigger issue is that no one on the liberal left cares to talk about the irresponsible side of abortion. The side of people who chose not to use birth control, or abstain from sex to begin with, if they were'nt ready to have a child. NO ONE mentions that. It's ALWAYS about rape and medical conditions.
Why is that? Why is it that the liberal left will not discuss the personal responsibility elephant in the room?
That's my point. Not your two friends.
I will answer you.
Aeroguy, I am not on the liberal left. I'm happy to hear you say you will budge on abortion for rape and medical conditions, though I wish you would do more than "budge"; I wish you would make a firm stand and say that of course, there are certain instances in which abortion is the right choice, but that you believe MOST abortions are immoral. That is a view I could respect.
I understand that it is annoying when pro-choice people immediately pull out rape and medical conditions, as if to ignore all the other reasons for abortion that are not as compelling, but it's the hardline position of the pro lifers that is directly responsible for the conversation going in that direction. The minute the pro life side presents a hardline on abortion in cases of rape and medical conditions, I go deaf, and so do many others. That view is dangerous insanity, and it frightens moral people. I wish I could be more diplomatic, but I cannot. It has to be said.
You would like to believe there are only two camps: the one you are in, and everyone else. It's not that simple. I'm certainly not in your camp, and I'm not in the camp that smirks and snickers at the whole notion of sexual morality.
What you seem not to realize is that by presenting this hardcore view of no abortions for any reason, you are actually mobilizing all of those people who are on the fence, and sending them directly over to the pro choice side. These are people who share a lot of your views on abortion, but when you start talking about how it's better for a rape victim to have "her baby" and "give it up for adoption" as if that's just easy pie, or when you begrudgingly "allow" that a cancer victim could have an abortion so that she can start chemotherapy (believe me, I've picked up the pro life brochures and some of the crap I've read is horrifying), you frighten those very people who WOULD BE on your side otherwise.
Pro lifers who speak that way do not come across as moral people who are trying to shed light on the ugly and dangerous side of abortion, on the emotional damage that can be caused by abortion (yes, I agree with you on ALL those points), or as people who are merely trying to bring society back to a time when sex was holy, meant for marriage, reserved for only those who are responsible (a position I hold strongly) -- instead, pro lifers like that come across as deranged fiends with no critical thinking ability to consider extenuating circumstances, and no moral person wants to be associated with people like that.
Furthermore, the continued use of the term "inconvenient" to describe an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy is completely demeaning to the entire concept of motherhood, which is ironic, because don't those on the pro life side wish to confer great honor upon the concept of motherhood? You cannot convince a woman that she is doing a great moral deed by continuing her pregnancy and bringing forth life, and in the same breath, refer to pregnancy and birth and parenting as a "mere inconvenience." You cannot have it both ways. You either respect the tremendousness of pregnancy and birth, or you do not (and refer to it as "inconvenience.")
I am fortunate that all my pregnancies were dearly wanted. Sadly, I lost (by miscarriage) most of them because of a medical condition for which there is no treatment. Additionally, I suffered from hyperemesis gravidarum, a condition OF PREGNANCY marked by severe nausea and vomiting, for which there is treatment but for some of us, none of the treatments ameliorate the horrendous symptoms. HG is life threatening and often requires hospitalization for intravenous fluids and medications, occasionally feeding tubes and/or hyperalimentation (nutrients infused through an IV directly into the bloodstream). I have encountered doctors and nurses who were woefully ignorant of the condition, to say NOTHING of lay people, who may think a woman is getting a bit too dramatic over a little morning sickness. Until she passes out and can't be awakened. Then they generally catch a clue. There are right now thousands of poor women who are suffering terribly, because everyone in their circle from family to medical staff are just too stupid to know what they are dealing with. This is but one example of the horror pregnancy may wreak on a woman's physiology, even if it is a wanted, highly prized pregnancy! For you to refer to pregnancy as an inconvenience is terribly insulting to me and I want you to know that and to hear it and to try not to get your hackles up.
Formercalifornian has also bravely shared with you her experience of a very heartbreaking and difficult pregnancy experience, I'm sure in an effort to broaden your perspective, and yet, I think you have completely ignored her.
It doesn't matter whether rape, incest, medical conditions all together account for 10% of all pregnancies that get aborted -- those people in the 10% MATTER. When you refuse to make it clear that you believe those in extenuating circumstances matter, you weaken the rest of your argument even though it may have validity. Pro lifers who adopt the hardline think they are presenting a very strong front, but in fact, such a position creates weakness in your movement.
Is our society too promiscuous? Too blase about abortion? Lacking in sexual morals and honor? Yes, yes, yes. When you propose forcing rape victims to have babies and show contempt for women who choose to save their own threatened lives rather than forfeit them to avoid abortion, you become part of the larger problem of immorality in this country.
Last edited by chattypatty; 03-16-2011 at 11:05 AM..
Aeroguy, I am not on the liberal left. I'm happy to hear you say you will budge on abortion for rape and medical conditions, though I wish you would do more than "budge"; I wish you would make a firm stand and say that of course, there are certain instances in which abortion is the right choice, but that you believe MOST abortions are immoral. That is a view I could respect.
I understand that it is annoying when pro-choice people immediately pull out rape and medical conditions, as if to ignore all the other reasons for abortion that are not as compelling, but it's the hardline position of the pro lifers that is directly responsible for the conversation going in that direction. The minute the pro life side presents a hardline on abortion in cases of rape and medical conditions, I go deaf, and so do many others. That view is dangerous insanity, and it frightens moral people. I wish I could be more diplomatic, but I cannot. It has to be said.
You would like to believe there are only two camps: the one you are in, and everyone else. It's not that simple. I'm certainly not in your camp, and I'm not in the camp that smirks and snickers at the whole notion of sexual morality.
What you seem not to realize is that by presenting this hardcore view of no abortions for any reason, you are actually mobilizing all of those people who are on the fence, and sending them directly over to the pro choice side. These are people who share a lot of your views on abortion, but when you start talking about how it's better for a rape victim to have "her baby" and "give it up for adoption" as if that's just easy pie, or when you begrudgingly "allow" that a cancer victim could have an abortion so that she can start chemotherapy (believe me, I've picked up the pro life brochures and some of the crap I've read is horrifying), you frighten those very people who WOULD BE on your side otherwise.
Pro lifers who speak that way do not come across as moral people who are trying to shed light on the ugly and dangerous side of abortion, on the emotional damage that can be caused by abortion (yes, I agree with you on ALL those points), or as people who are merely trying to bring society back to a time when sex was holy, meant for marriage, reserved for only those who are responsible (a position I hold strongly) -- instead, pro lifers like that come across as deranged fiends with no critical thinking ability to consider extenuating circumstances, and no moral person wants to be associated with people like that.
Furthermore, the continued use of the term "inconvenient" to describe an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy is completely demeaning to the entire concept of motherhood, which is ironic, because don't those on the pro life side wish to confer great honor upon the concept of motherhood? You cannot convince a woman that she is doing a great moral deed by continuing her pregnancy and bringing forth life, and in the same breath, refer to pregnancy and birth and parenting as a "mere inconvenience." You cannot have it both ways. You either respect the tremendousness of pregnancy and birth, or you do not (and refer to it as "inconvenience.")
I am fortunate that all my pregnancies were dearly wanted. Sadly, I lost (by miscarriage) most of them because of a medical condition for which there is no treatment. Additionally, I suffered from hyperemesis gravidarum, a condition OF PREGNANCY marked by severe nausea and vomiting, for which there is treatment but for some of us, none of the treatments ameliorate the horrendous symptoms. HG is life threatening and often requires hospitalization for intravenous fluids and medications, occasionally feeding tubes and/or hyperalimentation (nutrients infused through an IV directly into the bloodstream). I have encountered doctors and nurses who were woefully ignorant of the condition, to say NOTHING of lay people, who may think a woman is getting a bit too dramatic over a little morning sickness. Until she passes out and can't be awakened. Then they generally catch a clue. There are right now thousands of poor women who are suffering terribly, because everyone in their circle from family to medical staff are just too stupid to know what they are dealing with. This is but one example of the horror pregnancy may wreak on a woman's physiology, even if it is a wanted, highly prized pregnancy! For you to refer to pregnancy as an inconvenience is terribly insulting to me and I want you to know that and to hear it and to try not to get your hackles up.
Formercalifornian has also bravely shared with you her experience of a very heartbreaking and difficult pregnancy experience, I'm sure in an effort to broaden your perspective, and yet, I think you have completely ignored her.
It doesn't matter whether rape, incest, medical conditions all together account for 10% of all pregnancies that get aborted -- those people in the 10% MATTER. When you refuse to make it clear that you believe those in extenuating circumstances matter, you weaken the rest of your argument even though it may have validity. Pro lifers who adopt the hardline think they are presenting a very strong front, but in fact, such a position creates weakness in your movement.
Is our society too promiscuous? Too blase about abortion? Lacking in sexual morals and honor? Yes, yes, yes. When you propose forcing rape victims to have babies and show contempt for women who choose to save their own threatened lives rather than forfeit them to avoid abortion, you become part of the larger problem of immorality in this country.
My baby suffered from a profound birth defect involving the brain that was incompatible with long-term survival. Rather than carry her to term and prolong her and, yes, our suffering, my husband and I chose to abort. She was born alive and given palliative care for a short time until she died peacefully in my arms. My husband, parents, in-laws, and brother were all present. My pastor also came to pray with us and perform a ritual baptism and anointing of the sick.
You intend your words to wound, and your condolences are insincere. That much is very clear. Frankly, I'm not even sure why I shared my story. I don't need your approval to know that I did the right thing in the most compassionate way possible.
I wish that you could understand the very tender place I occupy in this debate. Chattycathy eloquently put into words a lot of thoughts with which I've wrestled during the past thirteen years. I am unabashedly pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I think abortion is appropriate in all circumstances.
I also think that extremists on both sides of this debate have miserably failed women and their unborn children. However, I will not stand by and watch silently as pro-life extremists attempt to take away choice. I am just as much the face of abortion as every other woman who has ended a pregnancy, and I am committed to preserving the option for all the women who come after me.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 03-16-2011 at 12:09 PM..
Because they subscribe to the belief that if you repeat a lie often enough, it will become the de facto "truth".
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