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Using meaningless, inflammatory terms get us nowhere. The term pro-abortion is nonsense. I've never heard of anyone, anywhere, ever being pro-abortion. If I could wave a magic wand, no woman would ever find herself in the position to want or need an abortion. That's not reality, though, so I support her right to make what she feels is the best decision in a bad situation.
Let's be clear- Pro-choice. Anti-choice.
Look in this thread at pennyG's statement....now you have.....chielgrl.....now you have seen two.
See anthropomorphism and self-delusion. Cult members want to see a fetus as an iconic being...essentially as a two-and-a-half year old toddler with the zoom factor set to 2%. It's entirely an appeal to fantasy. See also failure to address any of the points raised. By the reasoning proposed, we should consider the innocence of tomatoes before chopping them up and putting them on a salad, and the innocence of trees before cutting them down and sawing them up into lumber. It's all extraneous material. You resort to it because you have no relevant material to turn to.
Your just being silly now
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Ah, now we're on to the Sex = Guilt delusion. So-called social conservatives simply hate sex. You can predict their position on just about any issue simply be evaluating it to see if there is any way it can be construed so as to make it more likely that some people somewhere will have more sex. If there is, they are against it.
Now your assuming. Ask many women how they feel after having sex with someone they weren't 100% on....
Sex between two people in love is wonderfukl and there would be nothing to feel guilty about.....ask the woman and men that had the one night stand last night how comfortable they are with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Drivel. It is your baseless insistence upon compulsory childbirth in all cases and under all conditions that abbrogates responsibility, reason, and any sort of empathy for others. Have you ever considered that when you compel a pregnant 16-year old to carry an unwanted child to term, you are essentially killing the three planned and very wanted children she would have had at 25, 27, and 30 had she not been forced by invidious meddlers into bearing this one? Yes, that makes you a baby-killer, doesn't it. Baby-killer....yup....
Hmmm...your assuming a 16 year old could never achieve anything after having a baby...who's being irresponsible. Right now it's pro choice or pro abortion or whatever....Your playing with what ifs.....there are two sides....what about the woman that regrets that abortion her entire life...see my ex GF...and no it wasn't my kid.....and she absolutely now hates the father who would have been.....but still feels pain for not having the baby...two way street.
Sex between two people in love is wonderfukl and there would be nothing to feel guilty about.....ask the woman and men that had the one night stand last night how comfortable they are with it.
Shockingly enough (I'm sure to you it is) - there are plenty of people in this world who don't view sex as dirty, and do not guilt themselves for having a one night stand, and are plenty comfortable with it.
Hmmm...your assuming a 16 year old could never achieve anything after having a baby...who's being irresponsible. Right now it's pro choice or pro abortion or whatever....Your playing with what ifs.....there are two sides....what about the woman that regrets that abortion her entire life...see my ex GF...and no it wasn't my kid.....and she absolutely now hates the father who would have been.....but still feels pain for not having the baby...two way street.
Educational success is significantly hampered by teenage pregnancy, both for the teen and her child.
* Only Forty-one percent of teens who begin families before age 18 ever complete high school.1
* A recent study found that approximately fifty percent of first-time teen mothers under 18 that had dropped out did so before they were pregnant; the other half dropped out after becoming pregnant.2
* Parenthood is a leading cause of high school drop out among teen girls.3
* Only about 2% of teen mothers have a college degree by age 30.4
* Children of teen parents often do worse in school and are 50 percent more likely to repeat a grade.1
99% wouldn't be good enough for you? Sounds like the fallacy of appeal to perfection to me. Until a thing is perfectly understood, nothing about it that is understood can be accepted. That's a pretty common bit of logical hucksterism in right-wing arguments, actually. It still doesn't fly.
Your not an MD with a basis in child formation are you? or a scientist are you?
99% is your fictional number you want to put on this arguement....I would say a more conservative one would be 50/50
Who said I'm right wing?
Your making broad statements based on emotions right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
What we have on the subject at the moment is a quite well-developed and documented body of evidence indicating that so much as the physical capacity for transmission, reception, and processing of the signals required to indicate pain is not present until well into the third trimester. We also know that the capacity for actual pain-recognition is not completed until well after birth. On the other side, we have an extremely weak hodge-podge of pseudoscience, often based upon assumptions about reflexive responses to noxious stimuli that are known to be false. So...big pile of actual science versus tiny pile of pseudoscience. You make the call...
Seems pretty split down the middle with people thinking they have the answers....or even the majority...
Summary of a presentation given by Dr. Paul Ranalli on "Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion" on June 27, 1997. (I personally attended this presentation). Related links are included below. [/SIZE] [SIZE=2]The fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks. This is probably a conservatively late estimate, but it is scientifically solid. Elements of the pain-conveying system (spino-thalamic system) begin to be assembled at 7 weeks; enough development has occurred by 12-14 weeks that some pain perception is likely, and continues to build through the second trimester. By 20 weeks, the spino- thalamic system is fully established and connected.
There are three different indicators providing evidence that the fetus feels pain.
Anatomical
- pain receptors spread over the body in stages: 8-16 weeks
- pain impulse connections in the spinal cord link up and reach the thalamus (the brain's reception center): 7-20 weeks (summarized by Anand, K.J.S., Atlanta)
Physiological/Hormonal
- fetuses withdraw from painful stimulation
- two types of stress hormones, normally released by adults subjected to pain, are released by adults subjected to pain, are releases in massive amounts by the fetus subjected to a needle puncture to draw a blood sample:
(a) from 19 weeks onward (N. Fisk; London, England)
(b) from 16 weeks onward (J. Partch; Kiel, Germany)
Behavioral
- withdraw from pain
- change in vital signs A 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel more pain than an adult. The period between 20-30 weeks is a uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop.
Below is a graphical represenation depicting this mis-match in pain detection and pain modification.
Additional Information
Unborn Pain (broken link) Franics X. Rocca @ The American Spectator
Babies may feel pain of abortion (broken link) Roger Highfield @ Electronic Telegraph
Foetus 'may feel pain as early as six week old' (broken link)
Abortion doctors may give foetuses painkiller (broken link)
There are lots of arguments on both sides I don't have time to post them all for you. I'm sure you can find just as many for your side of the argument....hence 50/50
Results 11 - 20 of about 1,400,000 for When does a babyfeelpain
Shockingly enough (I'm sure to you it is) - there are plenty of people in this world who don't view sex as dirty, and do not guilt themselves for having a one night stand, and are plenty comfortable with it.
See sociopaths.....it's a shame I have to keep going back to that. It's plainly posted above.
Clarification:
2,000,000 people in America are considered to have a leaning of being sociopathic. In doing the numbers that 1:150 people....they are all around us....and it's not such a far fetched notion that this behavior is already been diagnosed.
Last edited by BigJon3475; 07-24-2008 at 09:14 AM..
Reason: Clarification
Teen Pregnancy Prevention: Fact Sheets-Why the Education Community Cares (http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/reading/fact_sheets/education.asp - broken link)
Educational success is significantly hampered by teenage pregnancy, both for the teen and her child.
* Only Forty-one percent of teens who begin families before age 18 ever complete high school.1
* A recent study found that approximately fifty percent of first-time teen mothers under 18 that had dropped out did so before they were pregnant; the other half dropped out after becoming pregnant.2
* Parenthood is a leading cause of high school drop out among teen girls.3
* Only about 2% of teen mothers have a college degree by age 30.4
* Children of teen parents often do worse in school and are 50 percent more likely to repeat a grade.1
So your side is give the young mother a chance because it's likely she won't amount to anything....
I'm not trying to convince anyone here....It seems everyone has their mind made up.....but it's not clear cut as many wish to see it. Google doesn't make it right or wrong.
The link between abortion and genocide is a very strong one, for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the fact that the Nazis and the Communists (in addition to their mass murders of fully "viable" adults) pushed abortion as some sort of twisted method for proletarian liberation.
In reality is was the perfect way the government could control yet another aspect of the lives of its citizens.
The ease with which innocent lives are snuffed out, the ease that politicians, lawyers, courts, doctors and some people have for killing is the biggest reason for concern, and that IS the crux of the whole debate, all other "issues" are distractions. In a world bound by endless political social compromise we are faced with decisions that are totally absolute. Once a baby (a cluster of cells by any other name) is killed, it's gone. Period. So, before we become so smug and comfortable with the idea of abortion, before we generate every manner of legalistic, rationalistic, socialistic justification for killing unborn children, babies, we need to step back and REALLY look at what we're doing, the precedent we're setting, so that when the day finally comes, that we realize what a mistake we've made we will at least know the way back to sanity and fully realize the innate SANCTITY of ALL human life, at what ever level of development, viable cells, blastulas, or what have you.
One reason why many people will think your assessment is in error is that women have been aborting probably since the beginning of time. Many were killed themselves in the attempt.
It does show the horror of an unwanted pregnancy and that women are willing to risk death in order to not bring an unwanted child into the world. I think there is too little said about the compassion of these brave souls.
I do not believe that a healthy and well adjusted woman has any sort of psychological scarring from abortions other than what is precipitated by hormones - and that is there whether she aborts or not.
There have been studies, though, of the mental problems of some adopted kids, knowing that they were rejected.
I think we know too little of the causes of mental illness and particularly who among us are more vulnerable than the rest of us.
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