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we have been there 10 years what help have they given us?
the fact is once we leave it will turn into a massive tribal war and the security forces will either flee or get killed
Perhaps, but it is also full of people who could be of great help to us fighting terrorism on an international scale.
If we don't stupidly enrage them by doing exactly what the radicals want us to do.
But according to the extreme Right posters here (and I do consider them extreme), that must mean I secretly love Islam and want to have Osama Bin Laden's babies.
So the Islamist hoarde burns down a church because its congregation doesn't worship Allah. What's the smart choice for the Christian? Go Muslim?
Or some Mullah issues a fatwa that an author must die because of a work of fiction. What's the smart choice for Salman Rushdie? Write sitcoms?
Before you accuse me of hyperbole, the above scenarios are by no means hypothetical. One only need read the news.
Here's the point that many on the Postmodernist Left don't get: there is no appeasing Islamists. No matter how fervently one believes that all cultures are equally valid and no matter how long you pray to Gaia for peace, the the mere existence of the kuffar is reason enough drive the Islamist into a murderous rage.
So the Islamist hoarde burns down a church because its congregation doesn't worship Allah. What's the smart choice for the Christian? Go Muslim?
Or some Mullah issues a fatwa that an author must die because of a work of fiction. What's the smart choice for Salman Rushdie? Write sticoms?
Here's the point that many on the extreme Postmodernist Left don't get: there is no appeasing Islamists. No matter how fervently one believes that all cultures are equally valid and no matter how long you pray to Gaia for peace, the the mere existence of the kuffar is reason enough drive the Islamist into a murderous rage.
More absolutism.
Horde is the word you are looking for, not "hoard." Two different things.
And there you've found the key difference in our points of view. I believe Islamists are absolutist in their philosophical alignment toward the non-Mulsim world. Convert, submit to their will or die.
You, on the other hand, see them as people who can be reasoned with.
I note you didn't bother trying to tell us what the "smart thing to do" would have been for Mr. Rushdie or those Christians unfortunate enough to get torched inside their own church. Care to work on those first before we move on?
Perhaps, but it is also full of people who could be of great help to us fighting terrorism on an international scale.
If we don't stupidly enrage them by doing exactly what the radicals want us to do.
What are the options for combating radical Isalm?
We can surrender our freedoms, our rights and our way of life and adopt Islam. That is not combating radical Islam, it's surrendering to it.
We can try to educate them, to show them that slaughtering innocent people in the name of a superstition is wrong and evil. In my opinion, trying to reason with someone with this mentality isn't going to work. It's like telling a racist that he is wrong...his bias and bigotry block reason.
You can try to kill them all. Which makes us no better than them.
Or you can just mock the hell out of them and their ways. Much like dealing with racists, mockery and humiliation may, in the long term, be a way to make a difference. I'm not sure that is his intent, but in practice that is what Jones is doing. It's a lot like the Fred Phelps and his ilk, if you get angry with him, you feed his ego and need for attention. If you mock and humiliate him, you take away his power.
Once again I need to add my usual disclaimer, I am directing these comments to radical Islam, not the peaceful followers of that religion.
And there you've found the key difference in our points of view. I believe Islamists are absolutist in their philosophical alignment toward the non-Mulsim world. Convert, submit to their will or die.
Mmmmm no. I believe exactly the same thing, about the radical elements of Islam at least, if that is what you meant by Islamist. The difference is not in our (low) opinion of Islam, it is about how to handle the situation.
For your opinion to be valid, they would ALL have to be radicals, which is simply not true.
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You, on the other hand, see them as people who can be reasoned with.
Some can, some can't. Reasons with the ones we can. Fight the rest. But why hamper the former while doing the latter if you don't have to?
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I note you didn't bother trying to tell us what the "smart thing to do" would have been for Mr. Rushdie or those Christians unfortunate enough to get torched inside their own church. Care to work on those first before we move on?
Rushdie et al. aren't tasked with fighting a war in which they are responsible for the lives of many thousands of people.
So spare me your faux outrage and predictable "you must love the muslims" nonsense. What this pastor did was unethical, period, and contrary to our goals. Rushdie wrote the Satanic Verses in an entirely different context. And he's been misinterpreted to a degree. There's no misinterpretation of what the pastor did. It was intended to inflame.
It has to be defeated as an idea, not as a population. We can kill the radicals by the thousands and we won't win the broader war if we don't make radical Islam unattractive in these places where it has taken hold, and elsewhere.
We can do that without playing right into their hands by casting ourselves as anti-Islam instead of anti-radical.
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We can surrender our freedoms, our rights and our way of life and adopt Islam. That is not combating radical Islam, it's surrendering to it.
And what crazy person is proposing we do that? Why do you think that endless war or submission to their will are our only choices here?
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We can try to educate them, to show them that slaughtering innocent people in the name of a superstition is wrong and evil. In my opinion, trying to reason with someone with this mentality isn't going to work. It's like telling a racist that he is wrong...his bias and bigotry block reason.
It is given that we cannot convince all of them. We don't have to to win, however.
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You can try to kill them all. Which makes us no better than them.
Or you can just mock the hell out of them and their ways. Much like dealing with racists, mockery and humiliation may, in the long term, be a way to make a difference. I'm not sure that is his intent, but in practice that is what Jones is doing. It's a lot like the Fred Phelps and his ilk, if you get angry with him, you feed his ego and need for attention. If you mock and humiliate him, you take away his power.
I agree in general, but burning a Qu'ran pisses off more than just the radicals.
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Once again I need to add my usual disclaimer, I am directing these comments to radical Islam, not the peaceful followers of that religion.
Some here don't seem to be able to make that distinction.
Others confuse my practical concerns with sympathy for radical muslims, which is dishonest and rather annoying...
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