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I came across this Ron Paul interview where Eliot Spitzer tries to educate Ron Paul on the Constitution. He claims that the general welfare clause gives the federal government the power to administer social security and medicare/medicade, where Paul responds that according to the Constitution and the 10th Amendment the federal government has enumerated powers and that it's more than a stretch to use the general welfare clause in the preamble to claim these power.
I think that it's pretty clear that the enumerated powers given to Congress in Article 1, Section 8 were meant to be the only powers allotted to Congress. The Constitution is pretty plainly written.
I'm interested in whether anyone buys Spitzer's argument (I think he's a tool; he barely lets Paul talk, but rather preaches to him). According to Spitzer's argument, the federal government could have the power to do whatever it wants in the name of general welfare.
And before you argue about case law; failures of the court system to limit the powers of federal government to those powers enumerated to them do not justify the existence of those powers in my mind. If you believe that the court's interpretation is correct, fine, argue the point of the justices. However, their role is to interpret the Constitution, not to bend it to fit their worldview.
For reference, Article 1, Section 8:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
And the 9th Amendment:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
And the 10th Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
And The Preamble:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Last edited by flash3780; 05-26-2011 at 09:15 AM..
And the 10th Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Does this not mean that the STATES have veto power over Federal rules and laws? The states should be allowed to reject Obamacare, the TSA, the EPA, and drilling moratoriums??
The Supreme Court held the same opinion in United States v. Butler, 297 U. S. 1 (1936) as you concerning "General Welfare" in the US Constitution:
Quote:
If the novel view of the General Welfare Clause now advanced in support of the tax were accepted, that clause would not only enable Congress to supplant the States in the regulation of agriculture and of all other industries as well, but would furnish the means whereby all of the other provisions of the Constitution, …
... sedulously framed to define and limit the power of the United States and preserve the powers of the States, could be broken down, the independence of the individual States obliterated, and the United States converted into a central government exercising uncontrolled police power throughout the Union superseding all local control over local concerns.
Obviously, using "General Welfare" as an excuse to levy taxes for any purpose Congress chooses was never the intention of the authors of the US Constitution.
And the 10th Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Does this not mean that the STATES have veto power over Federal rules and laws? The states should be allowed to reject Obamacare, the TSA, the EPA, and drilling moratoriums??
According to the Constitution the states held more power than the Federal government. The way the government has gotten around that is by changing the way taxes are collected. The federal government collects money directly from citizens (i.e. the income tax) and then gives it back to the states if they submit to its rules. A good example of this is the 55mph national speed limit. The federal government has no power to regulate speed on state roads, but will withold funds from states who don't comply.
Federal tax revenue originally came from state governments and tariffs. The senate was also meant to represent the state governments' interests. In general appointed senators weren't particularly willing to take from their state government budget to give to the Feds. Direct election of senators eliminated that check on government power, though.
Last edited by flash3780; 05-26-2011 at 09:40 AM..
And the 10th Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Does this not mean that the STATES have veto power over Federal rules and laws? The states should be allowed to reject Obamacare, the TSA, the EPA, and drilling moratoriums??
No. What it means is that the States are prohibited from exercising certain powers by the US Constitution. Such as Article I, Section 9, Clause 5 of the US Constitution, where the States cannot levy a tax on goods exported from any State. Or Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 of the US Constitution, prohibiting States from entering into "any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility."
These are things States cannot do, and there is more.
Yes, according to the Constitution the states held more power than the Federal government. The way the government has gotten around that is by changing the way taxes are collected. The federal government collects money directly from citizens (i.e. the income tax) and then gives it back to the states if they submit to its rules. A good example of this is the 55mph national speed limit. The federal government has no power to regulate speed on state roads, but will withold funds from states who don't comply.
Federal tax revenue originally came from state governments and tariffs. The senate was also meant to represent the state governments' interests. In general appointed senators weren't particularly willing to take from their state government budget to give to the Feds. Direct election of senators eliminated that check on government power, though.
The States do hold more power than the federal government, even now. That particular section of the Tenth Amendment acknowledges that the States and/or the people, hold the bulk of the power in the US. It also acknowledges that certain specific powers are prohibited to the States and/or the people. Some of those powers that are prohibited I listed in my prior post.
If 34 State legislatures decided to hold a State Constitutional Convention, they could propose amendments to the US Constitution that could undo anything the federal government has done. Providing, of course, that at least 38 State legislatures agreed with those proposed amendments through the ratification process. As a result, it could be said that the State legislatures have the ultimate power, or the final say in all matters concerning the US Constitution and what powers the federal government may have, or not have as the case may be.
The States do hold more power than the federal government, even now. That particular section of the Tenth Amendment acknowledges that the States and/or the people, hold the bulk of the power in the US. It also acknowledges that certain specific powers are prohibited to the States and/or the people. Some of those powers that are prohibited I listed in my prior post.
If 34 State legislatures decided to hold a State Constitutional Convention, they could propose amendments to the US Constitution that could undo anything the federal government has done. Providing, of course, that at least 38 State legislatures agreed with those proposed amendments through the ratification process. As a result, it could be said that the State legislatures have the ultimate power, or the final say in all matters concerning the US Constitution and what powers the federal government may have, or not have as the case may be.
Thanks for the correction; I fixed my previous post. While the states nominally hold more power, the federal government collects far more money than the state governments. Hence, they have a huge impact on the life of the "everyday Joe".
They can also hold states over a barrel by withholding funds from them if they did decided to challenge the power of the Feds.
Last edited by flash3780; 05-26-2011 at 09:40 AM..
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