Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
84 dead. Horrible. That is unheard of in a nordic country.
What does this sound like?
"Police forces in many western European countries worry about rising far-right sentiment, fueled by a toxic mix of anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant bigotry and increasing economic hardship"
Norway attack: Right-wing extremism emerging? - World news - Europe - msnbc.com
It sounds like the kind of talk we hear here every day from the far right wingers.
Get this: he faces 21 years in prison. He'll be free in his early 50s |
The economic hardships doesn't really apply to Norway, nor has really the rise of far right sentiment.
We've have indeed seen an incline in what's known as nationalistic movements, some posed as legitimate political parties, this has been less prevalent in Norway, our legitimate party that sits furthest to the right is a strong party, but their position has been stable, without significant growth nor decline.
Neo nazism and nationalistic and extremist right wing groups were bigger in Norway 10-15 years ago than they are today, Sweden on the other hand have a strong and large movement of this kind.
FYI and others:
The attacker will, if sentenced, be sentenced to 21 years detention. The way that works is that their sentence can be increased by 10 years at the time if they aren't found to be suitable for release into society. This man will die in imprisonment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuendel
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The news aren't completely accurate, and likely based off of screen dumps of his Facebook where his political leanings (Conservative) and his religious leanings (Christian). The police just had a press conference and made a point of letting everyone know that they
do not know the motive for the crime, they are aware that he's had political leanings to the far right, and is a member on several nationalist/far right websites, they do not know as of yet if this is his motive.
His religious leanings have not been mentioned as a potential motive, nor is it mentioned in Norwegian media, by the police or the authorities.
It is natural though, considering what is now being uncovered about his life to believe that this was politically motivated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC
Nice use of the tragedy to make political points....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC
This is about a mass shooting and bombing of innocent people,using it to make any points is wrong.
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It appears the assailant made the point here. This was not a deranged, out of his mind killer. He was calm, collected and reasoned when he carried on his attacks for 90 minutes. He would continuously tell children he was law enforcement to get the closer for easier killings, he also gave himself up
immediately when the police told him to. The police did not fire a single shot.
That does not appear to be the actions of a raving maniac to me.
I will not make any absolute accusations, as the police have yet to verify anything, but I will speculate, as the media and experts in Norway do. This attack appears to have been politically motivated. He attacked the ruling party, the party who has been ruling for most of our post WWII era. This party is largely responsible for the immigration policies we have today, and the idea of an open, inclusive, multicultural society, everything this attacker opposed.
Though we have to wait and see what the police eventually uncover, it appears this might very well have been the motivation, it has very recently been uncovered that he was a member of a Swedish forum that focus on how to attack government buildings and organizations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyIU29
The problem that I have with many of the liberals at this site at the moment is that most fail to realize that this party in Norway is considered centrist and while leaning slightly to the left, is far more centrist than other parties in its coalition. I do not think he was trying to eradicate the left or some jibberish...
Honestly I think the man is just deranged, though he had extreme right leaning sensibilities it doesn't seem to be part of a group or organization. Judging by his actions he must be insane.
And the comparison to fundamentalists in America to right wing Scandinavian neo nazis is a terrible one. Though I don't particularly like Christian fundamentalist, caused they have more or less made my GOP go so far to the right as to be unelectable in national elections, I certainly can not condone the labeling of Christian fundamentalists as akin to large, well supported Islamic terror organizations that serve as the ruling governments of some Muslim countries (Hamas etc.). We still don't know why the man did it.
Looking at all the chatter by Muslim groups it simply just looks this nut case beat them to it. Unfortunately they'll probably try to copy cat this.
However, just we truly need to wait till ALL of the facts are in before we start the political diatribe that I knew would occur regardless of the affiliation of the terrorist
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In part I will ask you to read my answer to OZ in SC above, but you are right, this party is central left, however, they *are* the government, they are the biggest (by a large margin) governing party and they've been in government for a large majority of our WWII era, they are heavily responsible for Norwegian policies, and specifically immigration policies and the idea of multiculturalism.
They are then, even though they are central left, everything this man appears to have opposed very strongly.
I agree that any correlation attempted to be drawn between this attack and Christian fundamentalists in the US is way off mark. I have first hand experience in both countries and both cultures, they are not comparable,
especially when it comes to religion.
Religious, even for non fundamentalist means something entirely different in the US than it does in Norway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC
To be honest,the guy just seems to be a nutjob...because IF your problem was with a political ideology,why would you target children,even if those children were at a youth camp run by the political party you despised.
But sadly this will probably be used for political/ideological gain...
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Because they are easy targets for one, it has a massive impact, it's horrifying and disgusting.
Because by doing so, he's essentially attacking the idea that the Norwegian society is based on, inclusive, direct politics and political involvement of youth.
if indeed it turns out that this attack was politically motivated, there are few ways that would've been more successful.
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Originally Posted by QweffL
I don't understand why is everyone son hung up on the fact that he's Christian when it's pretty obvious that his motives were political?
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This is indeed a fallacy, his religious leanings will likely not have had much to do with it. His political leanings are far more likely to have something to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene
That's right - a muslim extremist group DID claim responsibility......so, what's the problem?
When you have an admission, it becomes part of the "facts", right?
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Together with this claim of responsibility, there was numerous experts that said to take this information with a grain of salt, as these kinds of groups has a tendency to claim responsibility for such actions.
Though I agree that it was natural to assume or at least think in the direction of international terrorism when the reports of the bomb emerged, there is ample motive for an attack evident, such as involvement in Afghanistan etc, I also think it's important to acknowledge that this was a wrong assumption.
I myself had an idea that this could be AQ or similar until the reports of shootings surfaced, what's surprising to me, and I thing most Norwegian is that this wasn't the result of our combat actions abroad but the result of one of our own and a threat that hasn't been prevalent in Norway in the last decade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QweffL
I read a few days earlier about some extremist in Oslo with ties to Al-Qaeda who threatened to kill a few politicians if he was to be deported.
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This wouldn't have anything to do with it, Mullah Krekar is routinely arrested and/or charged for saying things of this nature. His statements were also made about a politician in a right wing party, not the governing party, who are the ones who stand fast on the principle of not deporting this person until the situation in Iraq is considered stable enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecovlke
In Norway, "where most police officers do not carry guns" <<< from a yahoo news story today.
This brings back memeories of the OKC bombing.
My heart goes out to Norway and its citizens.
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Thank you
Some information: The police do not carry guns, no. Squad cars however are all equipped with armored vests, handguns (pistols, 9mm) and one or two MP5 machine pistol(s). Police do not routinely patrol a lot on foot in Norway, so they will generally have these weapons available in the car they're in.
The Norwegian "SWAT" teams are armed similarly to SWAT teams here, with assault rifles, machine pistols, shotguns and pistols, a more routine armament of the police would not have made any difference in this scenario.
UPDATES:
7 confirmed dead in Oslo, this number may rise as there are remains of deceased in the building mass at the bomb site. The sweep of the building takes time as the structure is unstable due to damage to integral carrying parts of it.
85 confirmed dead at Utøya, 4 or 5 are currently missing, the worst case scenario will be 89 or 90 dead. Most if not all of the dead are teenagers, kids and very young adults.
The police report that he gave up without resistance, immediately after the police located him and told him to do so.
The assailant have admitted to being on the island and firing weapons, in police interrogations, he has not said anything about motive, the police say the interrogations are "demanding".
The assailant have requested a lawyer and a lawyer of his choice is now present.
The police have confirmed that the explosives found at Utøya were not explosive devices, they are now investigating if this is something the assailant brought with him.
The police cannot rule out that there might have been several shooters.
The police do not know if there's more bombs in the government buildings or not and sweeps for this continue.
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