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Old 08-12-2011, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
10,297 posts, read 4,911,646 times
Reputation: 4694

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The debate between Dems and GOP waxes eternal. Dems want to raise taxes on small to mid-sized businesses as well as large corporations to make the wealthy pay their fair share. GOP wants to lower taxes on corporations because they are the job creators and you don't create jobs by gouging the people that create jobs. But Dems would counter that this is all trickle-down voodoo economics rhetoric and the wealthiest executives would either just pocket the money or continue sending all the jobs to India and China.

How about a different approach: Do both.

Currently corporate tax rates in the USA are as follows:
$0 to $50,000 15%
$50,000 to $75,000 $7,500 + 25% Of the amount over $50,000
$75,000 to $100,000 $13,750 + 34% Of the amount over $75,000
$100,000 to $335,000 $22,250 + 39% Of the amount over $100,000
$335,000 to $10,000,000 $113,900 + 34% Of the amount over $335,000
$10,000,000 to $15,000,000 $3,400,000 + 35% Of the amount over $10,000,000
$15,000,000 to 18,333,333 $5,150,000 + 38% Of the amount over $15,000,000
18,333,333 and up 35%

Looking at that, I definitely wouldn't want to be a corporation in this country. And it's confusing and inconsistent. What if we did this:

A.) Start at a flat 25% for all corporations making less that $10 million in taxable income and a flat 35% for corporations making $10 million or more.
B.) Adjustment for outsourcing your workforce to other countries. Specifically, I'm talking about workers outside of the USA who are servicing and/or producing for consumers in the USA. For example: If Ford wants to make cars in Mexico and then sell them in Mexico, then that's fine. But if they're being sold in the USA then it works against them for the following tax rate adjustment:
-- 50% or more of their workforce outsourced to other nations, add 15% to their tax rate.
-- 30% and 40% of their workforce outsourced to other nations add 12% to their tax rate.
-- 20% and 30% of their workforce outsourced to other nations add 10% to their tax rate.
-- 5% and 20% of their workforce outsourced to other nations, add 5% to their tax rate.
-- If between 0% and 5% of their workforce outsourced their tax rate is unchanged.
-- Any corporation with 0% workforce outsourced to foreign nations subtracts 10% from their corporate tax rate.
C.) Adjustment for CEO salary vs the lowest paid employee. (Not necessarily the CEO, but whoever is paid the largets salary at said corporation. In most cases, that is the CEO but sometimes it is not.) For those who already held stock in the company (such as the founder of the business), income based on increases in stock value is not factored into this. Only their salary. Money that is put back into the business is likewise not counted. But if you pay an exec with stock, that counts as part of his or her salary.
-- If the CEO makes 1000+ times as much as the lowest paid employee, add 15% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 101 to 500 times as much, add 12% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 51 to 100 times as much add 10% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 21 to 50 times as much add 5% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes between 11 to 20 times as much, their tax rate is unchanged.
-- If the CEO makes 10 times as much or less, subtract 10% from their corporate tax rate.

No doubt this leaves a million questions unanswered that I'm not thinking about. I'm sure there's a lot more details that would have to be worked out. But wouldn't this be a better approach to corporate taxes than just arguing between "raise them!!" and "cut them!!"?

If you have zero outsourcing and low comparative CEO pay, then the corporation pays 15% in corporate taxes if their in the $10 million+ club. Under $10 million would pay 5%. So if a corporation can keep executive pay down and outsourcing down, then the USA becomes an incredibly attractive place to do business -- at least when it comes to this issue.

Thoughts??
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Old 08-12-2011, 05:19 PM
 
738 posts, read 1,018,213 times
Reputation: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The debate between Dems and GOP waxes eternal. Dems want to raise taxes on small to mid-sized businesses as well as large corporations to make the wealthy pay their fair share. GOP wants to lower taxes on corporations because they are the job creators and you don't create jobs by gouging the people that create jobs. But Dems would counter that this is all trickle-down voodoo economics rhetoric and the wealthiest executives would either just pocket the money or continue sending all the jobs to India and China.

How about a different approach: Do both.

Currently corporate tax rates in the USA are as follows:
$0 to $50,000 15%
$50,000 to $75,000 $7,500 + 25% Of the amount over $50,000
$75,000 to $100,000 $13,750 + 34% Of the amount over $75,000
$100,000 to $335,000 $22,250 + 39% Of the amount over $100,000
$335,000 to $10,000,000 $113,900 + 34% Of the amount over $335,000
$10,000,000 to $15,000,000 $3,400,000 + 35% Of the amount over $10,000,000
$15,000,000 to 18,333,333 $5,150,000 + 38% Of the amount over $15,000,000
18,333,333 and up 35%

Looking at that, I definitely wouldn't want to be a corporation in this country. And it's confusing and inconsistent. What if we did this:

A.) Start at a flat 25% for all corporations making less that $10 million in taxable income and a flat 35% for corporations making $10 million or more.
B.) Adjustment for outsourcing your workforce to other countries. Specifically, I'm talking about workers outside of the USA who are servicing and/or producing for consumers in the USA. For example: If Ford wants to make cars in Mexico and then sell them in Mexico, then that's fine. But if they're being sold in the USA then it works against them for the following tax rate adjustment:
-- 50% or more of their workforce outsourced to other nations, add 15% to their tax rate.
-- 30% and 40% of their workforce outsourced to other nations add 12% to their tax rate.
-- 20% and 30% of their workforce outsourced to other nations add 10% to their tax rate.
-- 5% and 20% of their workforce outsourced to other nations, add 5% to their tax rate.
-- If between 0% and 5% of their workforce outsourced their tax rate is unchanged.
-- Any corporation with 0% workforce outsourced to foreign nations subtracts 10% from their corporate tax rate.
C.) Adjustment for CEO salary vs the lowest paid employee. (Not necessarily the CEO, but whoever is paid the largets salary at said corporation. In most cases, that is the CEO but sometimes it is not.) For those who already held stock in the company (such as the founder of the business), income based on increases in stock value is not factored into this. Only their salary. Money that is put back into the business is likewise not counted. But if you pay an exec with stock, that counts as part of his or her salary.
-- If the CEO makes 1000+ times as much as the lowest paid employee, add 15% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 101 to 500 times as much, add 12% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 51 to 100 times as much add 10% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 21 to 50 times as much add 5% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes between 11 to 20 times as much, their tax rate is unchanged.
-- If the CEO makes 10 times as much or less, subtract 10% from their corporate tax rate.

No doubt this leaves a million questions unanswered that I'm not thinking about. I'm sure there's a lot more details that would have to be worked out. But wouldn't this be a better approach to corporate taxes than just arguing between "raise them!!" and "cut them!!"?

If you have zero outsourcing and low comparative CEO pay, then the corporation pays 15% in corporate taxes if their in the $10 million+ club. Under $10 million would pay 5%. So if a corporation can keep executive pay down and outsourcing down, then the USA becomes an incredibly attractive place to do business -- at least when it comes to this issue.

Thoughts??
We want to make the tax laws less complicated.

The wealthy are paying their fair share. The 50% paying nothing have to start paying theirs.
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
10,297 posts, read 4,911,646 times
Reputation: 4694
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodipper View Post
We want to make the tax laws less complicated.

The wealthy are paying their fair share. The 50% paying nothing have to start paying theirs.
I agree to a point. But this has nothing to do with the wealthy. This is not individual taxation. We're talking about corporations -- you know those companies that you can buy partial ownership of on the stock market.

And as I was thinking about it, forget about the above or below $10 million. Just a flat 25% as a starting point -- which is much lower than current tax rates on corporations. But you think this is complicated? How so? The current system is just as much or more complicated.

The whole point is to address the biggest problem in America today: The disappearing middle class. If you just throw big companies huge tax breaks and they get to keep millions of dollars that would have otherwise been tax revenue -- that alone does not create jobs. They might hire new people with the millions of $$$ you let them keep and they might not. They might hire new people in India and China. They might just divvy it up amongst the CEO and top exec's. They don't have to do the right thing. And raising taxes on corporations is just plain counterproductive.
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:43 PM
 
33,381 posts, read 28,934,398 times
Reputation: 19866
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The debate between Dems and GOP waxes eternal. Dems want to raise taxes on small to mid-sized businesses as well as large corporations to make the wealthy pay their fair share. GOP wants to lower taxes on corporations because they are the job creators and you don't create jobs by gouging the people that create jobs. But Dems would counter that this is all trickle-down voodoo economics rhetoric and the wealthiest executives would either just pocket the money or continue sending all the jobs to India and China.

How about a different approach: Do both.

Currently corporate tax rates in the USA are as follows:
$0 to $50,000 15%
$50,000 to $75,000 $7,500 + 25% Of the amount over $50,000
$75,000 to $100,000 $13,750 + 34% Of the amount over $75,000
$100,000 to $335,000 $22,250 + 39% Of the amount over $100,000
$335,000 to $10,000,000 $113,900 + 34% Of the amount over $335,000
$10,000,000 to $15,000,000 $3,400,000 + 35% Of the amount over $10,000,000
$15,000,000 to 18,333,333 $5,150,000 + 38% Of the amount over $15,000,000
18,333,333 and up 35%

Looking at that, I definitely wouldn't want to be a corporation in this country. And it's confusing and inconsistent. What if we did this:

A.) Start at a flat 25% for all corporations making less that $10 million in taxable income and a flat 35% for corporations making $10 million or more.
B.) Adjustment for outsourcing your workforce to other countries. Specifically, I'm talking about workers outside of the USA who are servicing and/or producing for consumers in the USA. For example: If Ford wants to make cars in Mexico and then sell them in Mexico, then that's fine. But if they're being sold in the USA then it works against them for the following tax rate adjustment:
-- 50% or more of their workforce outsourced to other nations, add 15% to their tax rate.
-- 30% and 40% of their workforce outsourced to other nations add 12% to their tax rate.
-- 20% and 30% of their workforce outsourced to other nations add 10% to their tax rate.
-- 5% and 20% of their workforce outsourced to other nations, add 5% to their tax rate.
-- If between 0% and 5% of their workforce outsourced their tax rate is unchanged.
-- Any corporation with 0% workforce outsourced to foreign nations subtracts 10% from their corporate tax rate.
C.) Adjustment for CEO salary vs the lowest paid employee. (Not necessarily the CEO, but whoever is paid the largets salary at said corporation. In most cases, that is the CEO but sometimes it is not.) For those who already held stock in the company (such as the founder of the business), income based on increases in stock value is not factored into this. Only their salary. Money that is put back into the business is likewise not counted. But if you pay an exec with stock, that counts as part of his or her salary.
-- If the CEO makes 1000+ times as much as the lowest paid employee, add 15% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 101 to 500 times as much, add 12% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 51 to 100 times as much add 10% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes 21 to 50 times as much add 5% to their tax rate.
-- If the CEO makes between 11 to 20 times as much, their tax rate is unchanged.
-- If the CEO makes 10 times as much or less, subtract 10% from their corporate tax rate.

No doubt this leaves a million questions unanswered that I'm not thinking about. I'm sure there's a lot more details that would have to be worked out. But wouldn't this be a better approach to corporate taxes than just arguing between "raise them!!" and "cut them!!"?

If you have zero outsourcing and low comparative CEO pay, then the corporation pays 15% in corporate taxes if their in the $10 million+ club. Under $10 million would pay 5%. So if a corporation can keep executive pay down and outsourcing down, then the USA becomes an incredibly attractive place to do business -- at least when it comes to this issue.

Thoughts??
how about we simplify the tax code instead, eh? as for CEO compensation, you do realize that much of that is stock options right? also you do realize that the CEOs that get the largest compensation packages are running multinational corporations, right? for instance alan mullally at ford. ford motor company is a multinational corporation and mullally runs the WHOLE shooting match. personally if i were in his shoes, i would want a hefty compensation package as well for all the responsibility i would be taking on.
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:47 PM
 
25,058 posts, read 24,548,097 times
Reputation: 11709
I favor abolishing all income taxes and replacing them with a sales tax and tariffs
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
10,297 posts, read 4,911,646 times
Reputation: 4694
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
how about we simplify the tax code instead, eh? as for CEO compensation, you do realize that much of that is stock options right? also you do realize that the CEOs that get the largest compensation packages are running multinational corporations, right? for instance alan mullally at ford. ford motor company is a multinational corporation and mullally runs the WHOLE shooting match. personally if i were in his shoes, i would want a hefty compensation package as well for all the responsibility i would be taking on.
I addressed most of the points you just made in my original post, were you reading the whole thing before replying? Stock options = salary so if your CEO of Ford gets $30 million in salary and $50 million in company stock, then his income -- for the purposes of this system -- is $80 million. I also already addressed multinational corporations.

I'm sure that Alan Mulally is a very persecuted man and that his life is just terrible. I'm sure that everyone else working at Ford who is not CEO are just a bunch of lazy bums who aren't doing anything to help the company succeed. But hey, if Ford wants to keep 60% of the workforce that produces the automobiles sold in America in foreign countries, nobody is saying they can't do that. In my very-rough-draft of a system, they would -- in effect -- be paying a luxury tax for doing so: 25% + 15% for outsourced workforce. If in addition to that they sincerely believe that paying Mulally $18 million a year is just smarter business, nobody is saying they can't. But they will have to pay another luxury tax for doing so: 15% (unless by some stroke of luck, the lowest paid janitor at Ford is making $40,000 a year.)

The life-blood of a strong economy is a strong middle class and the United States of America is bleeding to death with all the American jobs being sent overseas. In my mind it is the single biggest economic issue.

What I'm suggesting is that you make the USA a ridiculously nice place to do business for corporations who are willing to do the right thing: Hire American, offer better pay, etc.

Democrats and Republicans alike would prefer a simplified tax code. Dems just want a flat 80%. GOP just wants a flat 10%. Neither of them is going to budge an inch in the other's favor because their so cocksure that they're right. Would you prefer the middle ground there: A flat 40% corporate tax rate?
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
10,297 posts, read 4,911,646 times
Reputation: 4694
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
I favor abolishing all income taxes and replacing them with a sales tax and tariffs
100% agreed if we're talking about individual income taxes. But if you think about it, it gets pretty sticky when you're talking about corporations. Charging them a flat 20% sales taxes on things like the salary they pay for each employee ... that gets a bit screwed up. Tends to discourage them from hiring people. So you're pushing them to do the opposite of what you want them to do -- probably not a smart idea. The point is to create jobs not eliminate them, right?
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:15 PM
 
41,824 posts, read 44,130,333 times
Reputation: 17720
The tax bill is no different than the light bill for a company, it's just another expense. As a practical matter businesses are just tax collectors, move that tax to a sales tax exposing it to the consumer. The cost of the product goes down and the tax goes up, the important thing is the consumer gets to see how much tax they are really paying instead of it being hidden in the cost of the product.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:18 PM
 
843 posts, read 610,827 times
Reputation: 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
how about we simplify the tax code instead, eh? as for CEO compensation, you do realize that much of that is stock options right? also you do realize that the CEOs that get the largest compensation packages are running multinational corporations, right? for instance alan mullally at ford. ford motor company is a multinational corporation and mullally runs the WHOLE shooting match. personally if i were in his shoes, i would want a hefty compensation package as well for all the responsibility i would be taking on.

let me just throw this out there. I hear arguments against normal workers making $50,000 a year that they should be grateful for that salary. When workers strike or protest in order to get a standard raise, people say we should just fire them because if they don't like it, someone else will gladly take that job. I'll use that same argument here. If we have a CEO making 30 million a year, do you really think he won't take it at 20 million? or 15? If he doesn't, fine. Someone else will gladly take his place at 15 million.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:26 PM
 
Location: NC
1,250 posts, read 2,383,607 times
Reputation: 585
Lowered heck even bubba wants it lowered.
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