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Ah - yes, I did interpret it differently. I think you're right, he was still outside. Doesn't change the facts, though, that according to his own statement, the bear was posing no threat to his family and was only trying to get into the pig pen. Considering that the other two ran off when he shot the male cub, I wonder if he couldn't have just scared them away with a warning shot.
If a wild animal was attacking his family, or posed a true threat to his well being, I wouldn't argue about the shooting. Unfortunately for him, it looks like he was just trying to protect his pigs. Here's to hoping he is sentenced.
Do you mean that if you raised livestock as income or a food source for your family and you had used your own money to raise the livestock from the start you wouldn't defend your livestock? If someone came to your work and tried stealing your paycheck would you try to defend your paycheck? You must also understand the law. If he was defending his livestock or the courts deem that his livestock was in danger/harm, it is within his legal rights to do so. I have family whose only source of income for the family is raising cattle in the Paradise Valley in Montana. Do they defend their livestock when the wolves are wandering through their property? You betcha they do. They have every right to and so did this guy. Attacking your families income which in turn is food in your childrens mouths, clothes on their back and so on is legal. As a girl who grew up on a cattle ranch and knows the hard work that goes into raising livestock, I find it insulting that you would say that the bear was only trying to get into the pigpen. That is someones means of taking care of his children and you make it sound like some possesion. Furthermore, a mama bear (black or grizz) would most likely attack if a "warning" shot was fired as they would take that as a threat to their "children".
Last edited by magoomafoo; 08-29-2011 at 02:49 PM..
Reason: addition
Tough call with your neighbor. If you're going to feed wildlife...expect wildlife to frequent the area, sometimes with unexpected results. At our old house we had a similar issue. I build my wife a nice cedar bird feeder. One day she comes inside and says it looks like one of our local turkeys landed on it and it fell apart. ??? My woodworking skills aren't great, but not that bad. The big pile of bear scat told a different story...I felt vindicated!
Misty, I was going to PM you about the LGDs. A person I talked with in Avery related that they knew someone that had there Great Pyrnees killed by a wolf pack. I don't know how many dogs they had, or even if the story was true. But I though you should be aware of it.
She's also a "wildlife photographer" and a friend and defender of the Priest Lake photographer responsible for the habituation of the griz killed by F&G several years ago.
I have heard of LGD's being killed by wolves before (though not by grizzlies) don't know if it's true or not. I would worry more about them with wolves than bears.
It's best to run them in pairs, for sure.
In the almost 9 years we've used LGD's we've never had a predator related injury. Our Pyrs method is to keep the predators away by patrolling, marking territory and a LOT of barking. (You don't want a Great Pyr if you have close neighbors.)
It's worked for us. No predator losses of any stock even during lambing season and though before we got the dogs, we had cougar, bears and the occasional wolf mosey through our place....now we never see them or any sign of them.
Do you mean that if you raised livestock as income or a food source for your family and you had used your own money to raise the livestock from the start you wouldn't defend your livestock? If someone came to your work and tried stealing your paycheck would you try to defend your paycheck? You must also understand the law. If he was defending his livestock or the courts deem that his livestock was in danger/harm, it is within his legal rights to do so. I have family whose only source of income for the family is raising cattle in the Paradise Valley in Montana. Do they defend their livestock when the wolves are wandering through their property? You betcha they do. They have every right to and so did this guy. Attacking your families income which in turn is food in your childrens mouths, clothes on their back and so on is legal. As a girl who grew up on a cattle ranch and knows the hard work that goes into raising livestock, I find it insulting that you would say that the bear was only trying to get into the pigpen. That is someones means of taking care of his children and you make it sound like some possesion. Furthermore, a mama bear (black or grizz) would most likely attack if a "warning" shot was fired as they would take that as a threat to their "children".
I have a question for you. When the wolf planting program was first started, I understand one of the environmental organizations promised to pay livestock owners for depredation caused by the wolves. IIRC it was Defenders of Wildlife. I understand that it has been very difficult for ranchers to be reimbursed by this program. It practically took video of the attack in progress to get a settlement. Even photos of wolves eating dead sheep and cattle was dismissed as eating from a carcass killed by something else. Did your family have any experience with this? Not sure how true that story is.
You must also understand the law. If he was defending his livestock or the courts deem that his livestock was in danger/harm, it is within his legal rights to do so. ".
This is where state and federal laws can clash. It may be legal under your state law to kill an animal to defend your livestock, but if it's on the federal endangered species list, illegal by federal law. As in shooting a grizzly bear for livestock predation in the lower 48.
our nearest neighbor got rubber slugs from F&G to drive off a particularly obnoxious black bear, several years ago. She is a die-hard bird and deer feeder. We fired shots over his head and that was the last we saw of him. Then we got the LGD's and that's the last bear trouble we've had. Though...poor Guinness has reduced his patrol area because broke his toe and my daughter and I found a big pile of bear scat on the trail through our woods to the swimming hole.
I agree with this.
We've done the rubber slugs too. We also have rubber blunt tips for our bows. When you get a bear who is an habitual visitor over and over again, it's pretty tough to ward them off with rubber. Hazing works to a point until the bear figures out that they are just getting chased a short distance then left alone to go back to feeding. We just had a 300+lb black bear up a tree a hundred yards past our place two nights ago. When we get news of this, we just let the kids know to be on the watch and not to go near it. This time of year we have them all the time. Mountain Lions worry me more than the bears but I would still protect my family and livestock from either one. As far as the wolves go, it's more of a "if I see one, it's going down" thing. That is getting out of control.
She's also a "wildlife photographer" and a friend and defender of the Priest Lake photographer responsible for the habituation of the griz killed by F&G several years ago.
I have heard of LGD's being killed by wolves before (though not by grizzlies) don't know if it's true or not. I would worry more about them with wolves than bears.
It's best to run them in pairs, for sure.
In the almost 9 years we've used LGD's we've never had a predator related injury. Our Pyrs method is to keep the predators away by patrolling, marking territory and a LOT of barking. (You don't want a Great Pyr if you have close neighbors.)
It's worked for us. No predator losses of any stock even during lambing season and though before we got the dogs, we had cougar, bears and the occasional wolf mosey through our place....now we never see them or any sign of them.
I don't see much of an excuse for that idiot up at Priest. We've been known to feed deer at the very end of a hard winter, when they weren't doing well. Even that is discouraged by F&G, and we certainly would stop if a griz showed up. From what I understand, that guy was baiting the griz for pictures...wish he could have been prosecuted.
On my side of the river, the worst we seem to have is coyote, lion and black bear. Coyotes are the only problem ones, the flippin' things howl near our house and keep me up nights. Plus they have been hard on our kitty population.
I have a question for you. When the wolf planting program was first started, I understand one of the environmental organizations promised to pay livestock owners for depredation caused by the wolves. IIRC it was Defenders of Wildlife. I understand that it has been very difficult for ranchers to be reimbursed by this program. It practically took video of the attack in progress to get a settlement. Even photos of wolves eating dead sheep and cattle was dismissed as eating from a carcass killed by something else. Did your family have any experience with this? Not sure how true that story is.
Yes we have dealt with this and the oh so wonderful Defenders and Allience supporters. What usually happens is that they will reimburse (when it's a proven wolf kill) the lowest market value within the last calendar year (might have switched to the last quarter at the end) Doesn't matter anymore as there is no more money to pay ranchers so if your cattle/sheep/hogs/horses are killed by wolves, you are SOl. So even if you have a prize winning, spectacular breeding bull that your child raised for 4-h, you will get the lowest market value which is usually next to nothing and payment is EXTREMELY late.
This is where state and federal laws can clash. It may be legal under your state law to kill an animal to defend your livestock, but if it's on the federal endangered species list, illegal by federal law. As in shooting a grizzly bear for livestock predation in the lower 48.
Explain the wolves then. They WERE under Federal Protection and while under that protection, if it was proven that a certain wolf killed livestock and was killed because of it the rancher was not convicted.
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