This is the reason i'm a libertarian and would love to see the end of most federal departments (deaths, cost)

[Loveshiscountry]

Originally Posted by Smoke_Jaguar4

Not China, since the Chinese government is everywhere and is in everything. The Libertarian ideal is Haiti or Somalia: countries with governments that are so weak they can't care for their own citizens during natural disasters. Places where businesses have more firepower than the local police and instead of paying taxes they pay bribes.

Too many people have no idea how much the quality of life in the U.S. is the result of our government, and have never seen first-hand places that are closer to their 'ideal'.

lol Neither of those places are close to libertarianism. You made that up.
Hong Kongs workforce would be an example.

[GregW]

I am economically far left of the Democrats and the Progressives. I would like to see a system where the wealth concentrated by the creditors is redistributed to free the debtors from credit slavery. I think some Federal Bureaucracies like the DOD should be trimmed and I want the ATF and Homeland Security to be eliminated but I also think the Federal government should own and operate the natural monopolies.

Complaining about the FDA because they increase the cost of a start up is very short sighted. They are business insurance. If some of your “cold meat” product becomes contaminated even though you followed all the rules you will have a good argument when sick customers sue you for damages. If you didn’t follow the rules you will be effectively hanged. Why risk it?

I have considered Libertarianism and rejected it as the whining of a bunch of spoiled brats still dependant on Mommy but incessantly whining about it.

[Roadking2003]

Originally Posted by sammbriggs

roadking, it is you who's ignorant. didn't you know that china and somalia are pillars of libertarianism? they love free speech in those parts of the world and they are great defenders of private property. in china especially, they have a fantastic tolerance for recreational pharmaceuticals

I'll add this for you.

[sammbriggs]

Originally Posted by GregW

Complaining about the FDA because they increase the cost of a start up is very short sighted. They are business insurance. If some of your “cold meat” product becomes contaminated even though you followed all the rules you will have a good argument when sick customers sue you for damages. If you didn’t follow the rules you will be effectively hanged. Why risk it?

if i produce a product which harms people then i should be prosecuted and sued. that is the way it should work.

having said that, most of these big scares occur in factory farms. funny then that when new regulations come into existence it's invariably followed by heaps of small business closures

[Roadking2003]

Originally Posted by mateo45

Well that depends on which type of "Libertarian" you are, as we seem to go thru this every time the subject comes up, and even y'all can't agree! So which kind are you?

Yes, there is disagreement among Libertarians. Just like there is among Socialists and among Conservatives and among Liberals, etc, etc.

I seriously doubt that many Democrats agree with everything in the Democratic Party platform. Same for Republicans and Libertarians.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by Roadking2003

Yes, there is disagreement among Libertarians. Just like there is among Socialists and among Conservatives and among Liberals, etc, etc.

I seriously doubt that many Democrats agree with everything in the Democratic Party platform. Same for Republicans and Libertarians.

Yeah, just like we went thru this with all the so-called "conservative" supporters of Dubya.... only to have 'em change their tune afterwards, that he wasn't a "real" conservative (whatever the heck that is anyway). Of course by that time, it was, oops, too late!

Ideology is kinda like ice cream, I wanna know what "flavor" I'm buying first....

[geofra]

Originally Posted by sammbriggs

the fda just jumped to the front of the parade. the reason food bourne ilness has dropped is because of competition in the marketplace and advancing technology. there is no shortage of supermarkets and restaurants to go to to buy food. unlike you, if i get sick from food bought at any establishment (it has happened under govt watch), i generally tend not to go back to that place.

from a technological standpoint, business has looked at ways to extend shelf life of their products. people like you argue that they did so because of the fda have obviously never worked in any food related business at a management level.

I don't agree with your argument about the FDA jumping into the parade. It has led the food safety parade from the time it was necessary to create the agency. The FDA is instrumental in providing funding for research, public awareness, and education in food safety; and it partners with private industry groups in setting uniform food safety standards. If the federal government didn't do this, the individual states would do it, guaranteed. How long would it take for fifty different safety standards to develop?

There is regulation, of course, but unlike private industry group recommendations or market pressure, compliance is mandatory. It is a pain in the arse, but it has been beneficial to building public trust, and consequently profits, in the industry.

I never argued that the FDA is responsible for the technological advances involved in extending product shelf-life. That lies totally within the profit motive of individual firms.

That's my opinion and you haven't convinced me to change it.

[Wayland Woman]

Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry

You do realize an overwhelming majority of the people prepare their own food don't you?

Do you realize that the overwhelming majority of people prepare food that has been butchered, processed and handled in a lot of places before it even gets to supermarket for them to buy? The FDA has made that food chain safe and more importantly when something bad does pass from a farm or processing plant to our tables, it can be traced back to the source before it kills or sickens hundreds.

Libertarians like Rant Paul want to destroy many of the very things that have helped make this country so great.

[NHartphotog]

Originally Posted by mateo45

Sure, why worry about stuff like food and product safety, clean air and water, segregation, monopolies or insider trading. And while we're at it, to hell with education, enforcing laws, or taking care of the poor, the elderly, or even our vets! 'Cuz it's all about ME now, so every man and woman for themselves, and it's Devil take the hindmost!

Sorry, but frankly I think so-called Libertarians are nothing but Narcissists with a better sales pitch.

I would say Libertarians are THE most humanitarian of all the political groups. There's nothing "generous" or "kind" about enslaving what's left of the working class to pay for an overgrown and corrupt government, endless wars, as well as politicians who get themselves elected by promising the most taxpayer give-aways to the most people.

Government over-regulation does not give us safe food and product safety, or clean air or water. The only organizations that would constitute a threat to these things are government itself (do you have any idea how much pollution and environmental harm have been caused by our military, or our government?), or the Big Business that have total free rein to do anything they want in America.

The only ones harmed by the excessive regulations of government at the citizens, and small businesses driven to bankruptcy. When I worked for government, the first thing I learned was that the citizens ALWAYS tried to do the right thing, and the only problems we had were with Big Businesses--who also went straight to the top and got total exemptions from all regulations that would have effected them.

Monopolies are endemic in America today. Citizens get NO protection from government. All the Big Businesses have a total monopoly on all the high-profit activities that Americans MUST buy to survive.

Insider trading is also endemic in America today. Do liberals really think that we have a perfect world now that the government is involved in virtually everything, and confiscates 40% of the GNP to pay for its constant over-regulation and taxation activities?

Enforcing laws? The only law the local government cares about is handing out traffic tickets--in effect, commiting the crime of highway robbery. If you've had your house broken into, or your car stolen, you know it's true. Unless YOU got your property back, it was gone. State crime? Same thing: traffic ticket money scams. Federal? The only crime is not willingly giving 1/2 your income to taxes.

How many people went to jail for the housing collapse? The stock market and banking collapses? Do you really think nobody did anything wrong?

Education? How has pouring all this extra money into education for the last decades on the federal level improved education? We have done nothing but lower standards in order to meet government goals of EVERYONE graduating and virtually everyone going to college. All we did was make high school worthless, and now we must pay for 4 years of college to get to the same level as the average high schooler 4 decades ago.

And finally, taking care of the poor and elderly. Now that politicians SPENT the Social Security Trust Fund, how are future taxpayers going to support the retirement of the Baby Boom (especially, now that all the jobs have been sent overseas)? Because government taxes my family so excessively, we can't afford to EVER retire--how is that "taking care of the poor and elderly?"

In fact, the incredibly malfeasance of our government has basically ENSURED that EVERY working American will have nothing in the end, even if they worked their whole lives. Currency devaluation means that even if you saved huge amounts of money, you won't be able to get off the working treadmill--if you're lucky enough to still have a job.

Libertarians are the ONLY generous, fair and sane people on the entire political scene today.

[Visvaldis]

The Dept of Defense should be abolished.