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It's just a flag that is flown by folks proud to be southern, it has nothing to do with racism. I know a lot blacks that have rebel flags displayed. It just means I'm from the south. To many people are to sensitive to, to many things.
Oh, I'm sorry. Where, again, did I say Robert E. Lee was the one who said those words?
I said that while Robert E. Lee played lip service to "States Rightsm," the real reason was revealed behind the scenes. I didn't mention AT ALL that it was Lee himself OR his own Vice President, (and countless "others") preaching (literally, in some cases, by "preachers") the cause of secession used racism and slavery to rally the troops.
You self-congratulate too fast.
My apologies, kind sir. If you noticed, I went back in and removed the preface about Robert E. Lee. I scanned over your posts too quickly (it was difficult enough to get thru, anyway, without using up my supply of antacid tablets )
With that said, while I may self-congratulate too fast, you seem to be letting your keyboarding get ahead of your thought process. I say that because the point you are making is a bit incoherent. The real reason revealed behind the scenes? You mean the statement by Stephens? Or what was contained in the ordinances of secession in some of the Lower South states? Is the fact slavery is mentioned, or that statements which would rightly be considered "racist" today were uttered, supposed to be some sort of earth-shaking revelation? This fact has been discussed previously, many times.
No one denies it. What is your point? It has no bearing whatsover as to how those of us proud of our Southern history and heritage feel about or make associations today.
Behind the scenes reasons for the War? Something like what Lincoln said to Horace Greely when the latter asked why not let the South go in peace?
Lincoln replied: "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?"
Here are some more good ones: From (http://www.scvcamp469-nbf.com/lincolnquotes.htm - broken link)
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
And what does this prove? Did Abraham Lincoln fight a war to entrench his racist points of view? One can be a racist bastard without being pro-slavery, ya know. Maybe the distinction eludes you.
I am not sure why Lincoln chose to fight the War. Can you tell us? Seems like going by his statement to Greely it was because he feared losing the money the Southern states provided the treasury. But anyway, you tell me. Why DID he choose to invade the South?
*snickers* Yeah, that distinction eludes me. HAHAHA
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
HAHAHAHA. Is that supposed to be some sort of affirmation of Southern Pride, or annoy me? Give me a break. I grew up in the South, and lived for a while in the TRUE deep south. Not some Republica de Tejas version of "Southern!"
Now, is that HAHAHA supposed to make me feel slighted or something? If you think so, you really are self-absorbed.
BUT..to answer your question as to whether or not a good night signing off using the term "y'all" was used as an affirmation of Southern pride? Nooooo, I don't THINK so. It is just the way I talk. Perhaps this little sociological survey might back up whatever point I am making in replying to an even stranger one of yours. It concerned where the use of the second person plural pronoun was most common:
More than half using “y’all”: 1. Mississippi – 85.47% 2. Louisiana – 79.30% 3. Texas – 73.09% 4. Alabama – 72.81% 5. South Carolina – 71.83% 6. Georgia – 71.15% 7. Arkansas – 69.17% 8. North Carolina – 66.13% 9. Tennessee – 62.15%
So why should it be odd, me being a native Texas, that I would use "y'all"? How ridiculous!
Finally, is that "dig" about Texas and its "Southern status" vis a vis quoting your own formative years also supposed to annoy me. If so, then..wellll, to use your own retort (highly original, I might add) HAHAHAHA.
Being overcome with the hysterical laughter, I can write no further...
Always bothers me when someone expresses that much hatred for something or someone they say represents hate.
You are right on the mark, Expgc. Variations of your accurate observations have been posted before. That is, that it seems that those who are most vocal and vehement in their hatred of the Confederate Flag (and, often, all things Southern as well), seem to also be the least tolerant and hateful amongst us.
In going back over this thread, a certain common denominator becomes a bit evident. To wit, those of us who feel an affection/sentiment/attachment to the Confederate Battle Flag (and our Southern heritage and history) are the ones who also provide links to historical sources, try to maintain some objectivity in the realm of history, and are truly tolerant of opposition. Oh sure, we get testy sometime...but in the whole scheme of things, it is NOTHING remotely like the way "they" do it. Calling names, lashing out, arrogance, smugness (without justification), and an almost pathetic sense of moral-superiority, etc.
I don't know. I guess, like with the whole topic of the thread, history will be the judge of it all...
I don't really see a problem with people flying the Confederate flag from their cars, wearing on their shirts, or having one in your house. I do NOT however believe it should be flown on any government building such as a state capitol or courthouse. That to me is no different than seeing a Mexican flag flying from the state capitols of California, Texas, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, or Colorado.
A little sociological experiment that I run continuously is to fly the Stars and Bars in front of my house, or the Bonnie Blue, or ANY Confederate Flag other than the battle flag/naval insignia.... What I've determined primarily is that it is THAT flag. The ONE flag that people have a problem with.
Why is that??? Ignorance of the fact that the other flags are also symbolic of the Confederacy??? Or is it deeper than that??? That maybe it isn't the Confederacy that people are taking issue with necessarily, but what that flag has been used to represent since....
Oh sure, those on here that are making the opposite argument will surely say they find them all equally offensive, but then that is because they have to for to not say so would be to concede the argument entirely.
Another point of note is that when the Confederate Battle Flag/Naval insignia (Truth is that the one everyone sees is the naval insignia, but people don't realize... The battle flag was square in shape) is flown by someone or some group in the North somewhere it almost ALWAYS is a symbol of hate. No wonder they figure that's all it can mean because their own racist bretheren are draping themselves in it and basking in their own ignorance.....
We believe that which we see every day. I've split time between living in the North and South (and time in Florida which doesn't count as either... ). I'm a converted Yankee basically half of my family is from Connecticut and the other from Kentucky (but definately the Confederate half).... I used to believe in the saviors that were the Union Army and the bad bad men clad in Gray. No more. IMO one must really be a student of the war to truly understand, and one must live among southerners to understand the concepts of Pride, Honor, etc..... VERY abstract concepts for sure, but worth fighting for if they're what one ascribes to... These concepts are a large part of the story and at the very crux of the matter. They encompass State's Rights and with it, sadly, slavery. But a central point is, "You are NOT going to tell us what we can and can't do and along with it imply that you are somehow better than we are.".
Flame away, because those who gloss over and don't even attempt to understand this will respond as though they've just read the Latin version of the Old Testament.
Another point of note is that when the Confederate Battle Flag/Naval insignia (Truth is that the one everyone sees is the naval insignia, but people don't realize... The battle flag was square in shape) is flown by someone or some group in the North somewhere it almost ALWAYS is a symbol of hate. No wonder they figure that's all it can mean because their own racist bretheren are draping themselves in it and basking in their own ignorance.....
Excellent points and observations in your post, VA. Just want to call respectful attention (since I mentioned it before as well! ~L~) that, while you are correct that the ORIGINAL Battle Flag was square in design (the one of Beauregard and the ANV), the familiar rectangular version was not only the Confederate Naval Jack, but the standard of the Army of Tennessee as well. There was little, if any, difference in the design or pattern.
Where the real variations came in, was at the regimental or company level.
Anyway, no biggie, just something in the FWIW department!
A little sociological experiment that I run continuously is to fly the Stars and Bars in front of my house, or the Bonnie Blue, or ANY Confederate Flag other than the battle flag/naval insignia.... What I've determined primarily is that it is THAT flag. The ONE flag that people have a problem with.
Why is that??? Ignorance of the fact that the other flags are also symbolic of the Confederacy??? Or is it deeper than that??? That maybe it isn't the Confederacy that people are taking issue with necessarily, but what that flag has been used to represent since....
I really think it is the latter. In South Carolina, the beef with the naval jack over the State House was exacerbated by the fact that it didn't go up until the 1960's, when it was essentially a not-so-subtle dig against the burgeoning civil rights and anti-segregation movements.
Quote:
Another point of note is that when the Confederate Battle Flag/Naval insignia (Truth is that the one everyone sees is the naval insignia, but people don't realize... The battle flag was square in shape) is flown by someone or some group in the North somewhere it almost ALWAYS is a symbol of hate. No wonder they figure that's all it can mean because their own racist bretheren are draping themselves in it and basking in their own ignorance.....
Know what else it's a symbol of? Lynard Skynard. I'm not being facetious. The flag is on a lot of Skynard shirts, so I see the southern-fried rock fan set kinda latch onto it for that. It's also kind of redneck chic for some people. Punk rock fans have this affinity for the Union Jack, even though they've never lived in the UK. I've seen that with southern-rock fans in the north. I know it it seems like a stretch, and I would think so too if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. (And I made the point about the Naval Jack a few posts ago. A Naval Jack! Far, far from an ocean!)
Quote:
We believe that which we see every day. I've split time between living in the North and South (and time in Florida which doesn't count as either... ). I'm a converted Yankee basically half of my family is from Connecticut and the other from Kentucky (but definately the Confederate half).... I used to believe in the saviors that were the Union Army and the bad bad men clad in Gray. No more. IMO one must really be a student of the war to truly understand, and one must live among southerners to understand the concepts of Pride, Honor, etc..... VERY abstract concepts for sure, but worth fighting for if they're what one ascribes to... These concepts are a large part of the story and at the very crux of the matter. They encompass State's Rights and with it, sadly, slavery.
I gather from this that you feel that the flag is about far more than slavery, but you can't escape the fact that slavery occurred in the South. My family has been in South Carolina since before the United States existed. I proudly fly the SC flag for the same reasons you fly the confederate flag(s). In my opinion, since the Civil War was about the rights of States and aimed for a looser confederation than the gov't of the US had morphed into, I feel it more appropriate to show my respect for my state by flying the flag of my state, but to each his own. I can't change the fact that people owned slaves in SC, but that's not what the flag is about to me. I can respect that approach.
The truth is that many people are NOT flying it for the sake of respect and heritage. They ARE flying it to show thinly veiled racism and make the rest of those who are flying it look bad. What sucks for those who dislike it is that here in the US the only right we truly must sacrifice is the right to comfort. We have to see and hear things that bother us and make us uncomfortable sometimes. We'll live.
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But a central point is, "You are NOT going to tell us what we can and can't do and along with it imply that you are somehow better than we are.".
Aha! The adversarial nature of the South. Southerners do not like to be told what to do. That's what sparked the civil war. That's why the more people scream that Southerners are morons for their politics, the more entrenched in those politics they get. We shut down when someone starts pushing us around in an overt way. We respond much better to reason, kindness, and courtesy.
I truly believe that this distinction hightights the root of the issue.
I gather from this that you feel that the flag is about far more than slavery, but you can't escape the fact that slavery occurred in the South.
You seem a very articulate and reasonable person, CBC, so I know that you know that not many of us who stand up for the Confederate Battle Flag have denied the existence of slavery in the South. In fact, seems to me that many of us have gone out of our way to state the obvious and, further, acknowlege (on our own, NOT out of a sense of grudging defensiveness) that it would be totally silly to deny any connection between slavery and the Southern Cause.
However, I think what many of us are saying is, first of all, that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And I promise that as sure as blue is blue, there are many respondents who really didn't know the history of slavery in the northern states, nor the appalling extension of racism.
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Originally Posted by CarolinaBredChicagoan
The truth is that many people are NOT flying it for the sake of respect and heritage. They ARE flying it to show thinly veiled racism and make the rest of those who are flying it look bad. What sucks for those who dislike it is that here in the US the only right we truly must sacrifice is the right to comfort. We have to see and hear things that bother us and make us uncomfortable sometimes. We'll live.
So true, Carolina. And that is what many of us here are trying to take up (metaphorically speaking] arms against. That is, we proud Sons and Daughters of the South believe that the quickest way to let that honorable banner become the false property of Nazi's and Cone-heads, is to be scared of embracing it ourselves.
I will NOT allow that to happen...even if my own efforts don't amount to a hill of beans in the larger picture....
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