Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,356,787 times
Reputation: 7990

Advertisements

Quoth economist Robert Higgs:
The Welfare State and the Promise of Protection - Robert Higgs - Mises Daily
Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
We can have a free society or a welfare state. We cannot have both.
This is one of my all time favorite quotes. The idea is that government controls on behavior inevitably follow in the wake of government largess. You want government-provided health care? The taxpayers will be none too pleased about having to foot the bill for your obesity-related health-issue, your broken leg from a motorcycle accident, or your liver disease caused by drinking. Get ready for mandatory behavior modification.

As an econ-conservative/social liberal, I have been very frustrated with the GOP at times, especially W Bush who was an econ-lib/social conservative. I used to say that I would vote democrat and put up with the high taxes if they would just give me real, Euro-style social liberalism--no sex police raiding my favorite strip club, no war on drugs, etc.

But after further reflection, I reversed course. If we are going to have the welfare state, which apparently we are, I want the nanny state to go with it. I don't want to end up paying an 80% effective tax rate to pay for druggies' rehab, bikers' broken bones, etc.

Talk me out of this...????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:24 AM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,860,561 times
Reputation: 1517
Spot on. That quote has actually been stuck in my head for the last few days, funny you post this now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:26 AM
 
4,255 posts, read 3,479,228 times
Reputation: 992
Ill take a free society any day. I am an adult , fully capable of making my own decisions and paying the concequences of poor decision making.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,414,577 times
Reputation: 6462
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Quoth economist Robert Higgs:
The Welfare State and the Promise of Protection - Robert Higgs - Mises Daily


This is one of my all time favorite quotes. The idea is that government controls on behavior inevitably follow in the wake of government largess. You want government-provided health care? The taxpayers will be none too pleased about having to foot the bill for your obesity-related health-issue, your broken leg from a motorcycle accident, or your liver disease caused by drinking. Get ready for mandatory behavior modification.

As an econ-conservative/social liberal, I have been very frustrated with the GOP at times, especially W Bush who was an econ-lib/social conservative. I used to say that I would vote democrat and put up with the high taxes if they would just give me real, Euro-style social liberalism--no sex police raiding my favorite strip club, no war on drugs, etc.

But after further reflection, I reversed course. If we are going to have the welfare state, which apparently we are, I want the nanny state to go with it. I don't want to end up paying an 80% effective tax rate to pay for druggies' rehab, bikers' broken bones, etc.

Talk me out of this...????
A welfare state won't work in this country.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Columbus
4,877 posts, read 4,506,750 times
Reputation: 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Government is essentially the negation of liberty. -Ludwig Von Mises

Governemtn should limit herself to punishing violence and fraud. Once she does more, she commits violence and fraud against her own people. Economist Gary North.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
1,329 posts, read 831,909 times
Reputation: 737
Absolute freedom is incompatible with ethical behavior. People are social creatures and fulfilled when we act ethically and choose governments that constrain absolute freedom with respect for individual rights and shared social responsibilities. Social democracy, not neo-liberalism or anarcho-capitalism (libertarianism).

Libertarianism refutes itself because property rights are not absolute. Property exists because somebody squats on the resource first, but beyond this it is difficult to justify property ownership being an absolute right beyond conventionality; what authority would give a property owner that right? The individual? Lex talonis, which is no law at all. God? Then religious epistemology comes into the picture, maybe its the Catholic God with the "preferential option for the poor"? It can only be the state that properly creates the social contract for property to have meaning.

Last edited by DT113876; 12-25-2011 at 06:31 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 06:37 AM
 
10,875 posts, read 13,809,014 times
Reputation: 4896
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Quoth economist Robert Higgs:
The Welfare State and the Promise of Protection - Robert Higgs - Mises Daily


This is one of my all time favorite quotes. The idea is that government controls on behavior inevitably follow in the wake of government largess. You want government-provided health care? The taxpayers will be none too pleased about having to foot the bill for your obesity-related health-issue, your broken leg from a motorcycle accident, or your liver disease caused by drinking. Get ready for mandatory behavior modification.

As an econ-conservative/social liberal, I have been very frustrated with the GOP at times, especially W Bush who was an econ-lib/social conservative. I used to say that I would vote democrat and put up with the high taxes if they would just give me real, Euro-style social liberalism--no sex police raiding my favorite strip club, no war on drugs, etc.

But after further reflection, I reversed course. If we are going to have the welfare state, which apparently we are, I want the nanny state to go with it. I don't want to end up paying an 80% effective tax rate to pay for druggies' rehab, bikers' broken bones, etc.

Talk me out of this...????
I agree with you, I'd also like to have a strongly liberal euro style government that have proven to be successful, but that is highly unlikely going to happen.
The misconception is that this nanny state and handouts are all going to the lazy freeloaders, but the real truth is the overwhelming amount goes to the rich and large corporations.
The country as a whole has been drifting further and further to the right for at least the past 30 years. We essentially have a corporatist/fascist government. We have a center/right democratic party and a hard right GOP. Breaking up the handouts to the rich and trying to stop the tax payer from paying for it isn't going to happen unless somehow a third party or strong progressive administration is in power.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,565 posts, read 7,977,924 times
Reputation: 2605
Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
I agree with you, I'd also like to have a strongly liberal euro style government that have proven to be successful, but that is highly unlikely going to happen.
The misconception is that this nanny state and handouts are all going to the lazy freeloaders, but the real truth is the overwhelming amount goes to the rich and large corporations.
The country as a whole has been drifting further and further to the right for at least the past 30 years. We essentially have a corporatist/fascist government. We have a center/right democratic party and a hard right GOP. Breaking up the handouts to the rich and trying to stop the tax payer from paying for it isn't going to happen unless somehow a third party or strong progressive administration is in power.
So you're suggesting the rich pay the majority of the federal taxes just so it can come right back to them? Can you give an example of these handouts to the rich or how much of federal spending they account for?

As for welfare, I think it should be a hand-up, not an enabling hand-out as it is now. It should also be vastly cut and reserved for those who truly need it. The more the government provides, the more dependent folks become, and no doubt dependence lends the caretaker control therefore hindering freedom in an ultimately unnecessary way. We certainly don't need the centralized fed having that kind of control and each state should be providing its own welfare as it sees fit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 07:46 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,687,395 times
Reputation: 22474
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Quoth economist Robert Higgs:
The Welfare State and the Promise of Protection - Robert Higgs - Mises Daily


This is one of my all time favorite quotes. The idea is that government controls on behavior inevitably follow in the wake of government largess. You want government-provided health care? The taxpayers will be none too pleased about having to foot the bill for your obesity-related health-issue, your broken leg from a motorcycle accident, or your liver disease caused by drinking. Get ready for mandatory behavior modification.

As an econ-conservative/social liberal, I have been very frustrated with the GOP at times, especially W Bush who was an econ-lib/social conservative. I used to say that I would vote democrat and put up with the high taxes if they would just give me real, Euro-style social liberalism--no sex police raiding my favorite strip club, no war on drugs, etc.

But after further reflection, I reversed course. If we are going to have the welfare state, which apparently we are, I want the nanny state to go with it. I don't want to end up paying an 80% effective tax rate to pay for druggies' rehab, bikers' broken bones, etc.

Talk me out of this...????
I don't think we can have both but we are a welfare state and things are looking pretty bad. As the welfare population rapidly increases and outnumbers the ability of the productive sector to support it, everything will collapse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2011, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,464,288 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I don't think we can have both but we are a welfare state and things are looking pretty bad. As the welfare population rapidly increases and outnumbers the ability of the productive sector to support it, everything will collapse.
We're getting to that point quicker than we think.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:53 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top